IDPA Will it get you killed?

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The way I see it is..

Competition based sports are games.. there are rules you have to follow that do not apply in real life

Training is just that training.. it's not real, and just like sports they have their own limitations (do the targets shoot back).

Unless you want to move to a 3rd world country and walk the streets with a hundred dollar bill raised in your hand, then nothing you do here is truly "Real" training.

if you can recognize the applications of either in a real life situation, then you can "hope" to overcome them when the time is needed.. but either is better than nothing..

Train, but don't be blinded by that training.
 
here is one,,,looking for the other about the tactical reload/IDPA,..and I see an interesting statement of page 2.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_143_23/ai_56221731

Aaahhaaa,.found it...if you also look tothe link on this and Sean's message on the next posting,...kinda of a coincidence!
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40224&highlight=IPSC


here is a direct link to the Tactical reload article;
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/index.html
 
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Here is another article that speaks to issues raised here:

IDPA: Training or Just a Game?
It's Worth Your Time, Money and Effort

by STEVE DENNEY
Firearms Contributor


John Wills, one of my colleagues here at Officer.com, has once again hit the nail squarely on the head with his current column: Good Cops Know The Value of Training: Doing for yourself when your department can't. I've been working on this article for a while, and it seems appropriate to bring it forward now. Because he made the case so eloquently, I'm going to try to build on John's premise and suggest a specific way for you to improve your firearms skills, even if your department doesn't have the time or the resources to do as much training as you, or they, would like. Check out IDPA, the International Defensive Pistol Association.

Briefly, the IDPA grew out of an older and still very active shooting sport organization, the International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC). IPSC was formed back in the mid 1970s, with the goal of promoting accuracy, power, and speed in practical marksmanship. After a time, some of the founding members and participants realized that, although there was plenty of accuracy and speed, the practical side was losing out to the purely competitive side. It had become a game of speed and "race guns," which were poorly suited to real world self defense. IDPA was formed in 1996, with the specific goal of promoting the use of guns and equipment that would normally be used for personal protection. As a result, the rules of the game, and yes, it is a game, were established to promote shooter skills that would be useful if they ever had to use a handgun to defend themselves.

Now, let me get this part out of the way right here. Any time you set something up as a competition, keeping time and keeping score, there will be people who try to find the slickest way to win. Sometimes you have to compromise for the sake of the game and some of the IDPA rules and practices reflect that. Not everything at a match will be strictly "real world." However, on the whole, IDPA does a pretty good job of encouraging the skills that are useful in a gunfight which is why I think it's worth your time, money and effort.

Participation in IDPA matches is an excellent way to work on improving the kind of shooting skills that you need on the street. The rules require that non law enforcement shooters use the kind of guns and gear that they can use for lawful concealed carry, including the use of an appropriate concealment garment. Police officers, on the other hand, may also use their duty gear, just as they wear it on the street. As a result, you don't have to buy anything you don't already have and you are getting practice with the tools you have at hand every day. You'll get lots of repetitions with that Level III retention holster and your magazine carrier setup. Your movements to access your equipment will become smoother and more reflexive. You'll also find out if things don't work. Using your gear under stress brings out the flaws in how you are carrying it or how you can access it.

Let's face it, there are cops out there that are more worried about how to cram all that stuff around their waist, carry it with the least amount of discomfort and still have it all look good. When the gunfight comes, none of that matters. I once saw an officer walk into a "Stop-and-Rob" where I was picking up some snacks for a class we were teaching. I naturally check out the gear that officers carry as I travel around, so I noticed that he was carrying a horizontal spare double magazine pouch. Unfortunately, he had the cover flaps pushed up against his pepper spray. Had he needed to get to the magazines in a hurry, he would have had to somehow move the OC holster out of the way! Apparently, the actual use of his gear in that configuration never crossed his mind. It would have in a gunfight.

So, IDPA matches provide a key thing: regular practice. Once most officers get out of the academy, it is up to their department to establish regular firearms training. Tight budgets and hectic schedules result in huge gaps between range sessions. Even when officers do get to the range, it is usually just to qualify. In other words, you are called upon to demonstrate proficiency with your weapon on an established course of fire. You don't really learn anything new; you just show the brass that you can hit the target the required number of times. Real skill maintenance requires much more than that. Most active IDPA clubs hold matches once a month. Some even meet weekly for mini-matches. I've attended matches at indoor ranges, where they were cramped for space, but still managed to set up three low or no-light stages.

When was the last time you worked on your low light shooting? How often do you work in low light conditions? I've shot at matches that have as many as eight stages. Each stage in an IDPA match is intended to be a representation of some real world use of force scenario. There are some limitations, of course. Concessions have to be made for range safety reasons, but still, there is always something to be learned. That's an important part of the IDPA experience. You have to think your way through the stages. In the course of a well designed match, you'll be shooting from a variety of positions, using cover appropriately, identifying appropriate targets, shooting and moving, shooting with one hand, shooting at moving targets and shooting with both speed and accuracy - all this while SAFELY handling your firearm. It is challenging and it is fun. It is also serious practice. One of the things that we use in our classes is a computer analogy. One of the more unpleasant messages we get from our computers is File Not Found. We were hoping something was there, but the computer never had any input on the subject, hence it has no output when you need it. It is the same with your on-board computer: the standard issue brain.

If you have been exposed to something, in theory, or better yet, in practice, your brain should find that file when you need it. In the midst of a fight for your life is not the time for your brain to respond File Not Found. Who knows what stage in an IDPA match may one day be the one that triggers the realization: "Hey, I've seen this before. I can handle this!" In addition, how many of you get to practice on a range where you can draw smoothly, move and shoot quickly, reload rapidly and get immediate feedback about how well you are doing all of these things? A colleague of mine, Chris Christian, made an excellent point during a recent podcast we were recording. If you did those things at most ranges, you'd get thrown out. Many ranges don't allow moving, working from a holster, or so-called "rapid fire." Such things only happen at the matches, so that's where you need to be.

At the monthly shoots I regularly attend, the First Coast IDPA Match Director, Dr. Ed Sevetz, is a firearms instructor for a local county sheriff's department. Out of a typical match attendance of 60 to 70 people, we usually only see a handful of cops. I asked Ed, and also a retired colleague of his (who was also a firearms instructor and special teams member) why we don't see more cops at matches. Well, time and money were certainly a factor, but we agreed on one reason that should give us all pause: the cops don't want to embarrass themselves. Yep, that's it: Ego. Many cops realize that their skills aren't what they ought to be. They also realize that there are ordinary citizens out there who are better gun handlers than they are. That's a tough one to swallow, being that the police are supposed to be the gun pros.

Folks, for your own sake, as well as the people of your community, suck it up, check your ego at the door and go improve yourselves. I know of one officer who is an outstanding shooter and a firearms instructor for his very large state agency. He never finds time to go to a match. His father attends almost every month. His brother, who is with another state-wide agency, makes it as often as his schedule allows. He's a good shooter also, and he always has a great time. In fact, I think it's an eye opener for a lot of cops who do make the effort when they realize that there are a lot of really good people out there with guns. They take their training seriously and have an excellent appreciation for the tough job that the police have to do every day.

So, how do you make this happen? Here are some suggestions. Begin by finding out if there is a local IDPA club in your area. The web link to the national IDPA website is below. That will lead you to local clubs. If not, ask around at your local gun shops and shooting clubs. Then make a commitment to go to a match and give it a try. Better yet, get a department team together and go. Show the department colors, as it were. Maybe you can get the department to kick in the ammo or the ride to get there. Bring back the scores or copy the match results for your files. Take some pictures at the match, write up an article and submit it to the sports section of your local newspaper. Even the papers that are usually neurotic about guns realize that the cops have to carry and use them. They might just welcome an article about how well you do that. Your department can benefit from the positive publicity and maybe even get some community backing to help with the expenses. If nothing else, you'll be getting lots of great practice, meeting some really good people (for a change) and probably make friends for yourselves and your agency. It is an outstanding opportunity in many respects, but most importantly, it will make you better at skills you might need on the street. I can't think of a better way to spend a few training hours every month. I look forward to see you there!
 
VERY good article as well. Thanks for posting. I really like this part,..I wish a few people I know would read it.


Out of a typical match attendance of 60 to 70 people, we usually only see a handful of cops. I asked Ed, and also a retired colleague of his (who was also a firearms instructor and special teams member) why we don't see more cops at matches. Well, time and money were certainly a factor, but we agreed on one reason that should give us all pause: the cops don't want to embarrass themselves. Yep, that's it: Ego. Many cops realize that their skills aren't what they ought to be. They also realize that there are ordinary citizens out there who are better gun handlers than they are. That's a tough one to swallow, being that the police are supposed to be the gun pros.

Folks, for your own sake, as well as the people of your community, suck it up, check your ego at the door and go improve yourselves. I know of one officer who is an outstanding shooter and a firearms instructor for his very large state agency. He never finds time to go to a match. His father attends almost every month. His brother, who is with another state-wide agency, makes it as often as his schedule allows. He's a good shooter also, and he always has a great time. In fact, I think it's an eye opener for a lot of cops who do make the effort when they realize that there are a lot of really good people out there with guns. They take their training seriously and have an excellent appreciation for the tough job that the police have to do every day.""



The arguement about, "there is so much more to being a police officer/ LE than being a good shooter",...is absolutely correct,...BUT,..this is the one skill you can not do over. The one time that skill may benefit you is when you are going to want it.

**plus you have fun at the range and meet new people..!!!!**
 
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Maurice

Check out idpacanada.com. There are other articles you might be interested in posted there including some great gun drills.

We, being civilians, are sometimes our own worst enemies when promoting IDPA/IPSC when it comes to encouraging police officres to participate. It is one thing for the author, above, to tell officers to check their ego BUT I think it is incombant on us to leave the "we/they" attitude at home. Officers don't need the jibes, make them feel welcome and part of your sport and leave it at that. They get enough "in your face" attitude on the street, they don't need it when they are playing our games.

At our club our policy is simple. When we hit the line we are all just shooters trying to do the best we can with what talent we have.

Take Care

Bob
 
Ah the keyboard warrior returns...with or without your pills? The only documented use of a firearm to defend oneself in Canada that I am aware of last year occured when the drug dealer blasted a police officer and got off. My odds of winning the lottery are better than that and the only training I need to do to win the lottery is a short walk from my vehicle to the local Husky station.

If you want an answer to your questions start a new thread.

Better we let Steve answer for himself.

Take Care

Bob

Bob, your use of one case to illustrate your point is rather weak. However, you still admit that the potential to defend yourself or need to defend yourself is very much a real possibility. Even though your odds of winning the lottery are small, you still take the steps to play by purchasing a ticket. Same logic is used in carrying a firearm. The chances of having to use it are slim, but the odds indicate it is a possibility. I bet you have fire insurance for your home. The odds of a house fire are over 1,000,000:1 so why bother?

Your statement regarding the legal use of a firearm to defend yourself sounds like a pathetic excuse for validating ones failure to plan or train for violent life threatening events. There have been several cases of self defense here in Calgary in the last few years that resulted in some low life being zipped up in a bag. Self defense and the use of lethal force isn't as rare as many believe, the stories often don't make it to the local news. Either way, its your choice whether or not you decide to defend yourself or play the odds and rely on law enforcement. I see surviving and possibly serving time as a better choice than ending up a statistic. Maybe that's just me.

As for IDPA and training. Its a great excuse to get some shooting in and work on some fundamentals. It isn't great training but it does provide a stressful situation requiring one to think and utilize their marksmanship skills. My personal beef with IDPA are the ignorant rules and classifications involved.

I fail to see the need to separate single action pistols from DA/SA or DAO guns. The same can be said for revolvers. You chose the gear now deal with it. If someone is concerned about the "advantage(s)" offered by X pistol over Y then get into IPSC where gaming is the premise. If you want to hone your skills in a semi life like environment then stop worrying about scoring and shoot the course. At the end of the day IDPA is no substitute for accredited training from a known school and neither will replicate the real deal. IDPA is however a far better vehicle for defensive shooting than IPSC. The skills/drills that will get you in trouble in my opinion are the square range rules so many feel they must live by. For example. At a three gun match last summer there was some debate between a couple shooters as to whether or not it was safe to lie prone with a pistol on the holster because the muzzle was now pointed up range where other shooters/spectators were located. The complete lack of having or permitting the holstering of a loaded pistol, slinging a loaded rifle. The most common is the need to unload and show clear as fast as humanly possible without exercising a 360 degree threat scan. The shot timer works off muzzle report. Why rush to show clear???

TDC
 
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Training

I have to ask this - If Gun "Games" or "Sports" were so dangerous to the real world; then why are the IPSC pros; (Strader, Jarret, Voight, Letham, Sevigny, Barnhart, Garcia et all...) (Dunno who the IDPA Pros are; sorry.)making so much money training LE, special forces and mercenaries...err...contractors?

I think they train in shooting techniques - not competition techniques. (as in I.P.S.C shooting while framing yourself in a doorway, no Israeli peek , no cutting the pie etc.) Any cqb'r using competition moves would be so tired from the pushups the N.C.O. would be forcing on him wouldnt even be able to lift a gun !
 
Interesting arguments. For those against or thinking IDPA will get you killed. Are you training in proper tactics the same amount of time that the "gamers" as you are calling them are playing? As such, would you rather have a guy with you that shoots IDPA all year in a gunfight, or the guy who does one or (no) "proper" tactics class a year and spends the rest of the time on the net or armchair quarterbacking...? If knocking people who are learning and practising weapons handling and marksmanship trying to best past and personal performance, what would you suggest as an alternate that would provide better skills?
 
Tdc

"Your statement regarding the legal use of a firearm to defend yourself sounds like a pathetic excuse for validating ones failure to plan or train for violent life threatening events."

TDC returns with tactical keyboard in hand. Tell me is your computer painted camo?

" My personal beef with IDPA are the ignorant rules and classifications involved."

You seem to have a well defined view in your world about what is ignorant and what is not. Either that or you have a very small vocabulary. I suspect both.

Given you are not a member of IDPA, and from your comments likely never will be, why are you so concerned about either the rules or the classifications? If you want to start a thread setting out the reason why you hate the world then do so.

Those of us who shoot IDPA, enjoy it for what it is. We will contact you for your input when we feel it is necessary.

IDPA is a sport! What part of those four words do you not understand. Just like baseball, darts or basketball. It has rules. You want to play the game, you play by the rules. Life is not any simpler than that.

Take Care

Bob
 
I fail to see the need to separate single action pistols from DA/SA or DAO guns. The same can be said for revolvers. You chose the gear now deal with it ...

In most matches I've seen, the results are listed top to bottom. Classifications and divisions are only used for awards.

While some leagues are stricter than others, we've never turned anyone away for wanting to shoot a pistol that doesn't 'qualify'. They won't be eligible for any awards but for some thats A-OK.

If training and practice are foremost in your mind then awards probably won't matter much anyhow. Right? For most people I know, the opportunity to test real world gear in dynamic scenarios is of much more use than the 'glory' of first place.
 
VERY good article as well. Thanks for posting. I really like this part,..I wish a few people I know would read it.


Out of a typical match attendance of 60 to 70 people, we usually only see a handful of cops. I asked Ed, and also a retired colleague of his (who was also a firearms instructor and special teams member) why we don't see more cops at matches. Well, time and money were certainly a factor, but we agreed on one reason that should give us all pause: the cops don't want to embarrass themselves. Yep, that's it: Ego. Many cops realize that their skills aren't what they ought to be. They also realize that there are ordinary citizens out there who are better gun handlers than they are. That's a tough one to swallow, being that the police are supposed to be the gun pros.

Folks, for your own sake, as well as the people of your community, suck it up, check your ego at the door and go improve yourselves. I know of one officer who is an outstanding shooter and a firearms instructor for his very large state agency. He never finds time to go to a match. His father attends almost every month. His brother, who is with another state-wide agency, makes it as often as his schedule allows. He's a good shooter also, and he always has a great time. In fact, I think it's an eye opener for a lot of cops who do make the effort when they realize that there are a lot of really good people out there with guns. They take their training seriously and have an excellent appreciation for the tough job that the police have to do every day.""



The arguement about, "there is so much more to being a police officer/ LE than being a good shooter",...is absolutely correct,...BUT,..this is the one skill you can not do over. The one time that skill may benefit you is when you are going to want it.

**plus you have fun at the range and meet new people..!!!!**


I used to think the same way until I heard a good arguement against this.
What if a justified shooting takes place and a civil suit is launched against the constable. It is found out that during one of the matches, the constable was (fill in the blank) DQ, zeroed a stage, came in the bottom 50% in his / her division. How would a judge or jury perceive this?
 
It would take quite the grevious act to get DQ'd at an IDPA event. Having shot three Sanctioned matches and numerous club matches I have yet to see a competitor get DQ'd. Unles a competitor abuses a match official or blatantly ignores the rules DQ's are seldom seen. When a competitor does get DQd he is gone for the day not zeroed for that stage in IDPA.

We can invent whatever in the ifs department to justify just about anything in life. Being DQd at an IDPA event is not very common though I am sure it does happen. Must be another reason besides the one you speak of.

I have not met any police officers yet who would likely do either. The local officers want to follow the rules of the game and go out of their way to help out where ever they can.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Well I gotta admit, I'm impressed. I would have figured a lot more opposition to the position that IPSC and IDPA are games and a lot more arguments for their application in the real world - especially given what I hear around the campfire every now and then. So go - learn, competete, get better and have fun.

They're games and really nothing more. (I think that goes for bullseye too!)
 
So how many people who have posted in this thread have actually been in a real gun fight with their or someone else's life on the line? I haven't but I know I stand a better chance or surviving one because I shoot IPSC/_DPA
-being able to shoot accurately very fast is better then not being able to
-being able to reload( speed or tactical/retention) fast is better then not being able to
-being able to place a shot under pressure is better then not being able to
knowing how to accurately shoot while using cover is better then not being able to.
all things which you get by going out and screwing around at an IPSC or _DPA match.
If you want to play make believe out at the match go ahead, but don't hack on the people that are their to play with their guns and have a good time with their friends, and stay the hell off my squad.
 
Real gun fight

So how many people who have posted in this thread have actually been in a real gun fight with their or someone else's life on the line? I haven't but I know I stand a better chance or surviving one because I shoot IPSC/_DPA
-being able to shoot accurately very fast is better then not being able to
-being able to reload( speed or tactical/retention) fast is better then not being able to
-being able to place a shot under pressure is better then not being able to
knowing how to accurately shoot while using cover is better then not being able to.
all things which you get by going out and screwing around at an IPSC or _DPA match.
If you want to play make believe out at the match go ahead, but don't hack on the people that are their to play with their guns and have a good time with their friends, and stay the hell off my squad.

I have - your vision becomes a tunnel and all you can see is the enemy gun and you forget about center mass and shoot at the gun, you dont know how many rounds you fire - you remember one and shot 4 - reload speed means nada - cause its over before you need to reload. Whats important is that action beats reaction every time and first shot accuracy and stopping power is all that counts. Only lousy shots have extended pistol combat - then cover not concealement counts.
 
I have - your vision becomes a tunnel and all you can see is the enemy gun and you forget about center mass and shoot at the gun, you dont know how many rounds you fire - you remember one and shot 4 - reload speed means nada - cause its over before you need to reload. Whats important is that action beats reaction every time and first shot accuracy and stopping power is all that counts. Only lousy shots have extended pistol combat - then cover not concealement counts.

Did you read that in a magazine,...sounds suspiciously like something I read somewhere....:rolleyes:
If you had an experience with, and doing well in IPSC /IDPA,..I would not discount you,..but you don't sound like you have those experiences. I guess guys like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn,..Todd Jarret and the likes are all wrong,....better tell them to stop practicing bad habits. Or instructing people as they might get them killed.:slap:
 
A poo poo er

Did you read that in a magazine,...sounds suspiciously like something I read somewhere....:rolleyes:
If you had an experience with, and doing well in IPSC /IDPA,..I would not discount you,..but you don't sound like you have those experiences. I guess guys like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn,..Todd Jarret and the likes are all wrong,....better tell them to stop practicing bad habits. Or instructing people as they might get them killed.:slap:

I am black badge IDPA and PPC etc., won matches - and a cqb instructor for the police and military, and yes my post is for real - there are members of this site who know me - I dont care if you dont believe it - read the content of the post - it is true thats what matters.
 
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