CCW in theory: Big and slow vs light and fast?
- Thread starter mr00jimbo
- Start date
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
10mm for me too!
cablemonkey
CGN frequent flyer
I'm already slow and fat so I pick that one. I'm also pretty sure a few well placed shots, of any caliber, will do the trick. Spend more time learning to put your rounds where you want them to go and it won't really matter what you're shooting; the job will get done.
As usual, only a few actually understand what's important when discussing carry gear. Well done MLP
TDC
- Location
- SW Ontario
In the winter it's all well and good because of the big parkas and coats. The clothing can cover anything without the headache of being discovered and charged with brandishing. In that case I would go for a SW 625 or 586. But what about the summer? How can one properly conceal a large frame?
I think to really conceal some thing effectively and deploy it fast enough it has to be small like and effective H&K P7. In Germany the under cover cops of a few years ago were known how fast they can deploy their side arms before being discovered what they really were.
I think to really conceal some thing effectively and deploy it fast enough it has to be small like and effective H&K P7. In Germany the under cover cops of a few years ago were known how fast they can deploy their side arms before being discovered what they really were.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Perhaps you left out the fat and fast possibility. A 115 gr 9mm bullet has a SD of .130 and so does a 185 gr .45. The 115/9mm and the 185/.45 have similar velocities when fired from barrels of equal length. There is nothing that can be done to improve a small bullet that cannot be applied to a large. One does not go into the willows after a grizzly with a .223, so why would you consider going into the deepest darkest urban tangle against a far more dangerous animal with a 9mm mouse gun?
Let us agree that sub-sonic or even transonic bullet expansion in flesh is not guaranteed. At any given velocity, the bullet with the largest frontal area disrupts the most tissue until it stops or exits. If neither the 9mm or .45 slug expands, the .45 will produce a more serious wound. If the 9mm expands (it will expand to about .53 caliber) and if the .45 does not, the 9mm will produce a wider but shorter wound channel, but fully expanded it does not have enough weight to ensure for maximum or even adequate penetration. Increasing the weight to 147 grs is better, but at the cost of velocity which conversely reduces the chance of expansion. The larger the hollow point in a pistol bullet, the more likely it is to plug preventing expansion.
I have a fired 9mm Black Talon in my collection that shows no expansion what so ever, not even the scallops around the hollow point are deformed. A truncated cone bullet shape is more efficient that a round nose, and if the hollow point does not function, it is still going to produce a serious wound, but a wound from a .45 produces more trauma than a wound from a 9mm.
Let us agree that sub-sonic or even transonic bullet expansion in flesh is not guaranteed. At any given velocity, the bullet with the largest frontal area disrupts the most tissue until it stops or exits. If neither the 9mm or .45 slug expands, the .45 will produce a more serious wound. If the 9mm expands (it will expand to about .53 caliber) and if the .45 does not, the 9mm will produce a wider but shorter wound channel, but fully expanded it does not have enough weight to ensure for maximum or even adequate penetration. Increasing the weight to 147 grs is better, but at the cost of velocity which conversely reduces the chance of expansion. The larger the hollow point in a pistol bullet, the more likely it is to plug preventing expansion.
I have a fired 9mm Black Talon in my collection that shows no expansion what so ever, not even the scallops around the hollow point are deformed. A truncated cone bullet shape is more efficient that a round nose, and if the hollow point does not function, it is still going to produce a serious wound, but a wound from a .45 produces more trauma than a wound from a 9mm.
Pick a pistol you can carry on you anytime of year, and practice lots with it. Get used to practicing your draw with a jacket, parka, loose shirt, maybe even a waist pack for something different. Time of year and what you're wearing shouldn't matter. If you can't, or don't take your pistol everywhere it defeats the purpose of being ably to carry a pistol in the first place.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If you are shooting for your life things have already gone very wrong and are not likely to improve anytime soon. Clearly any gun is better than no gun at all, and the gun you are most familiar with gives you the edge. Every decision you make leading up to combat either increases your edge, reduces your edge or should be considered neutral. Cartridge considerations while perhaps secondary should not be ignored and in this respect a large bullet gives you the edge, as does being tactically aware, and having a combat mindset. Hopefully your decisions and training gives you enough of an edge that you can survive, but to suggest that a 9mm is good enough, particularly if you are in a position to carry a full sized pistol, is a neutral advantage at best. Should you be an experienced warrior, who is mandated to carry a sub caliber gun, your experience and mindset are what will win the day.
- Location
- North Vancouver
10mm goodness. 'nuff said.
Penetration kills.
The only thing that incapacitates instantly is an upper CNS hit. Beyond that a hit to a major blood bearing organ (heart, liver or kidneys) or major bloodvessels is the only thing that is going to stop a human in a short time frame.
"Stopping power", "knock down power", "energy dumping" and all that other crap is a myth.
Its not even a question of big and slow vs light and fast. It is a question of, can my bullet go through clothing, skin, fat, muscle and bone to hit the important things?
The truth is, all pistol rounds are just about the same. A FMJ 9x19mm round will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. A FMJ .45ACP round will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. Bullet diameter plays a slight role here, but it should be a secondary thought. A larger diameter bullet hits what a smaller diameter one barely misses. With larger rounds comes more recoil. Two rounds of a smaller bullet diameter gives a higher vital hit chance that one round in the same timeframe with a larger bullet diameter.
The usefulness of JHP is questionable too. They don't expand all the time in tissue. When they do, it leads to decreased penetration (the most important factor), but a larger permanent wound channel. This may lead to faster blood loss, and a very slight increase of a chance of hitting a vital area. It seems that JHP may also decrease certain firearms reliability. I do not think the trade off of a larger perm wound is worth the decrease in penetration and reliability. I would choose FMJ.
So what to pick? The round with that largest unexpanded bullet diameter that you can continuously dump out rounds where recoil and muzzle flip wont slow you down at all. The higher the capacity the better, use FMJ rounds.
The only thing that incapacitates instantly is an upper CNS hit. Beyond that a hit to a major blood bearing organ (heart, liver or kidneys) or major bloodvessels is the only thing that is going to stop a human in a short time frame.
"Stopping power", "knock down power", "energy dumping" and all that other crap is a myth.
Its not even a question of big and slow vs light and fast. It is a question of, can my bullet go through clothing, skin, fat, muscle and bone to hit the important things?
The truth is, all pistol rounds are just about the same. A FMJ 9x19mm round will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. A FMJ .45ACP round will penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. Bullet diameter plays a slight role here, but it should be a secondary thought. A larger diameter bullet hits what a smaller diameter one barely misses. With larger rounds comes more recoil. Two rounds of a smaller bullet diameter gives a higher vital hit chance that one round in the same timeframe with a larger bullet diameter.
The usefulness of JHP is questionable too. They don't expand all the time in tissue. When they do, it leads to decreased penetration (the most important factor), but a larger permanent wound channel. This may lead to faster blood loss, and a very slight increase of a chance of hitting a vital area. It seems that JHP may also decrease certain firearms reliability. I do not think the trade off of a larger perm wound is worth the decrease in penetration and reliability. I would choose FMJ.
So what to pick? The round with that largest unexpanded bullet diameter that you can continuously dump out rounds where recoil and muzzle flip wont slow you down at all. The higher the capacity the better, use FMJ rounds.
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the gun that puts the bullet on target all the time is the one I want. I would rather be missed by a 45 than hit by a 22.If I could carry I would carry my 1911 in 45 or my S&W in 357. I would pick a load and practice like a wild man. U must hit to make a difference. These things are not just point & click
.45 super comes pretty close, but ACP cases wouldn't handle the pressure needed to push 200 grains at 1200+fps.
