Shooting SIGs in IPSC

Thread hijack

you know i have never figured out why people think that winning a government contract or a police association contract is a good recommendation for a gun. in most cases (the exception being elite units who have an actual say in what they use) guns are purchased by some faceless bureaucrat in an office who has taken a simple set of specifications, made it as complicated as hell and then buys the cheapest thing out that that remotely meets the specifications, i.e. it is a hand gun, it is 9 mm , it holds 15 rounds and comes with two magazines, close enough! sort of like Alan Shepard's quote "It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract."
 
yes,...the p30-L is an improvement over the USP, and if you are decent with the USP,..you will find a noted improvement in your results.
 
Walter Hornby said:
Thread hijack

you know i have never figured out why people think that winning a government contract or a police association contract is a good recommendation for a gun. in most cases (the exception being elite units who have an actual say in what they use) guns are purchased by some faceless bureaucrat in an office who has taken a simple set of specifications, made it as complicated as hell and then buys the cheapest thing out that that remotely meets the specifications, i.e. it is a hand gun, it is 9 mm , it holds 15 rounds and comes with two magazines, close enough! sort of like Alan Shepard's quote "It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract."
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Hey Walter

Your statement has some merit. But the pistols in question have gone through torture tests and had to shoot groups in the 2-3 inch range in order to get the government contracts. So my question has merit when you take that into consideration. :)
 
When looking around the globe at SF Units that depend on their weapons to save lives you see three pistols:

Sig Sauer (JTF-2, SAS, SEALS ect.)
Glock (GSG-9, Cobra, US. 5th SF Group, long list of others)
HK (KSK, many others)

Not necessarly in the listed order of popularity.

When you talk to people who play with guns the makes change.
I won 3 IPSC Alberta Standard Class titles with a USP .45 Tactical.
The first and only year I shot Production I won the Alberta IPSC title with an all Stainless Sig P226 9mm and nearly beat Clint M. from BC who had trained all year. (I also own Glocks, HK P7 and used to have an awful Para 1911 in .40).

I can't expain why more shooters don't use Sig Sauer's. I found mine far better than my Glock. The double action pull is a little long but you can train through it and become good. In my expereince the Sig's, HK's and Glock's break a-lot less often than the others. I like the CZ (whatever/whoever makes a copy now) but wouldn't trust my life on one. They are a good pistol to play with and they are cheaper so go for it if you like them. I do remember the IPSC days (18 years or so ago) when they were starting to be used. It didn't last long, they all broke and fell apart. This isn't a fair comparison though as those guns were run in Open Class with high pressure loads. The CZ in 9mm should last longer now.

I have an Sig Sauer All round X5 in 9mm and it's flawless, so is Beltfeds X5 in 9mm. I think the few shooters that have had issues with the X5's might be due to reloading issues.

My 2 cents,

Rich
 
4string said:
Hey Walter

Your statement has some merit. But the pistols in question have gone through torture tests and had to shoot groups in the 2-3 inch range in order to get the government contracts. So my question has merit when you take that into consideration. :)
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of course it sounds good but lets take accuracy. 2- 3 inch range at what yardage? freehand, sand bag or ransom rest? who does the shooting? factory shooter or my mother? i doubt any decent firearm could not shoot a 3 inch group at 25 yards off of a ransom. it is all subjective.

i will give one example. i had a fellow who was taking his BB with me. he asked should he shoot his Glock or his Kimber. really easy answer for me shoot the steel gun. however he really wanted to shoot the glock and i told him shoot what you want and feel comfortable with. Well in the mini match he placed last. so he spent the next week trying both guns and concluded that he shoot the Kimber way better then the Glock and wanted to know why, so i went through the reason why i thought he shoot the Kimber better (honestly i can be subjective when talking about a Glock!) of course the best comment from him was "I like shooting the Glock." so then i had to give him suggestion on how to improve his shooting with the Glock.
 
Rich LPS said:
I have an Sig Sauer All round X5 in 9mm and it's flawless, so is Beltfeds X5 in 9mm. I think the few shooters that have had issues with the X5's might be due to reloading issues.
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Yeah, I think loading issues and cleaning issues too. The X5 is tight, and running pussy fart loads gets guns dirty quick; something the X5 doesn't care for.

I've used my Sig 226ST at a few matches including the last provincials, and did ok. The perceived recoil on an all stainless gun is a joke -I think even less than the SP-01, unfortunately the reset is terrible.
I'm not as comfortable competing with it as I am my Glock 17 as I've blown a few short courses hanging fire on the reset alone. Just one of those things to get used to and overcome, as I definately want to start using it more for matches. I've been toying with the idea of diving into Standard (minor) with the X5 to see how I do.
 
O ya,

I forgot to add:
I have the Dept. of Homeland Security's pistol test results. I can't release details to the public though (Law Enforcement sensitive). What I can tell you is that they spent millions testing pistols and shot nearly all brands to destruction. It was one of the most comprehensive weapons tests in modern history and one of the most expensive.

Only 2 pistols passed the testing
1. Sig Sauer
2. HK

(Massive contract awarded jointly to each brands.)

I'm a big Glock fan but their guns broke and fell apart. They were unable to complete the testing. I know it's a hard pill to swallow for the Glock fans (like me) as Glock has always prided its self on extreme tests but they couldn't pass.

Before people start complaining I assure you that the sample of pistols tested was very high. I'm trying to go from memory but I think $20 million spent on the test. So don't kid yourself this wasn't a case of: "we tested one gun from each brand and these ones broke". I like CZ's but their quality control isn't the same as Sig Sauer and HK (or Glock for that matter).

Like I said before, playing with guns and getting the "best trigger re-set" is one thing. When someone is trying to kill you and your life depends on the weapon is quite another.

Rich
 
So I guess after all is said and done the answer(s) to my question is

A) Sigs are more expensive than what the average Production shooter will spend on a gun.

B) While the accuracy and reliability are noteworthy, the long trigger reset is a hinderance.

C) Sig, while are great pistols, focus more on selling to the average gun owner or on contracts and not so much on sponsoring IPSC or IDPA shooters.

D) All this talk about Sigs has me cruising the EE in search for my next gun.
 
Rich LPS said:
O ya,

I forgot to add:
I have the Dept. of Homeland Security's pistol test results. I can't release details to the public though (Law Enforcement sensitive). What I can tell you is that they spent millions testing pistols and shot nearly all brands to destruction. It was one of the most comprehensive weapons tests in modern history and one of the most expensive.

Only 2 pistols passed the testing
1. Sig Sauer
2. HK

(Massive contract awarded jointly to each brands.)

I'm a big Glock fan but their guns broke and fell apart. They were unable to complete the testing. I know it's a hard pill to swallow for the Glock fans (like me) as Glock has always prided its self on extreme tests but they couldn't pass.

Before people start complaining I assure you that the sample of pistols tested was very high. I'm trying to go from memory but I think $20 million spent on the test. So don't kid yourself this wasn't a case of: "we tested one gun from each brand and these ones broke". I like CZ's but their quality control isn't the same as Sig Sauer and HK (or Glock for that matter).

Like I said before, playing with guns and getting the "best trigger re-set" is one thing. When someone is trying to kill you and your life depends on the weapon is quite another.

Rich
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this is not hard to believe. CSC had a few pistols to test, but none passed whatever tests they tested :slap:,..not sure what that was; but the HK P2000 was chosen. NHQ in Ottawa confirmed this by email last week to me,..said the only one that passed the tests was the HK...:cool:

I shot my new HK P30-L last weekend in NS at a level 2 match,...no break in required,.but I should have at least had it sighted in or fired it before the match...with my loads and user error I shot consistantly left,...missed some mag changes in a major way,..and also shot way too many extra rounds. One thing to mention is that it ran 100%,..no feeding,.mag,..or functioning issues= out of the box good to go. I did not do as well,..but I was out of practice with this particular platform and never shot this gun before. The only thing I can say is that is not a tanfoglio stock2, which is still my best platform to use in production division. :sniper:
 
4string,

You're right on all points you made.

A couple of other tid-bits;

JTF-2 has P226's with over 100 000 K through them.
Seal Team 6 lists the P226 as the longest lasting weapon in their inventory.

Rich
 
4string said:
Why is it that a Brand that has such a loyal following, has won many government contracts, and is known to be reliable isn't seen on the Production circuit? I know a few Alberta shooters shot the X-5 series and had extraction problems, but you would think the 226 would be common.

I have never shot or owned one, but they seem like a great pistol.
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I had a sig 228 and I liked it a lot, but it is not the optimal setup for ipsc. The procurement beancounters who decide on which pistol is selected by thier department, I am not one by I am fairly sure that optimal competitiveness in ipsc does not factor into thier decision.

That being said if you did get one you could have a lot of fun with it shooting production with it.
 
Guys who are very competitive will shoot guns that give them the best chance of winning. Others will shoot guns that the winners are using to win with. For IPSC Production that includes CZ & Tanfoglio pistols. I suppose when you see a SIG pistol win the World Production Division things might change. Until then I think you will find the answer to your question above.

Too, I think you have to realize what might make a great duty gun is just as likely not to be the best gun for playing IPSC. There are local guys who do shoot the SIGs and do very well, locallly. Works but not as well as other platforms based upon what guns are winning at the National or International level.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Guys who are very competitive will shoot guns that give them the best chance of winning. Others will shoot guns that the winners are using to win with. For IPSC Production that includes CZ & Tanfoglio pistols. I suppose when you see a SIG pistol win the World Production Division things might change. Until then I think you will find the answer to your question above.

Too, I think you have to realize what might make a great duty gun is just as likely not to be the best gun for playing IPSC. There are local guys who do shoot the SIGs and do very well, locallly. Works but not as well as other platforms based upon what guns are winning at the National or International level.

Take Care

Bob
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I think Bob`s got it right. Play a game and get the gear for the game. Anybody shooting IPSC with an HK or Sig is doing so because they saw Joe Coolguy or whoever in the movies use one.
 
Sigs are very well made and accurate, but the bore axis on them is quite a bit higher than on some of the other designs you typically see in the top strata of IPSC competition. A higher bore axis translates to more muzzle flip, and that means more time on the clock from shot to shot. I used to own a 226 and loved it. The thing was a tack driver, but if I was looking for a gun to race in Production Division with it would have to be something with a lower bore axis.
 
D_ said:
I think Bob`s got it right. Play a game and get the gear for the game. Anybody shooting IPSC with an HK or Sig is doing so because they saw Joe Coolguy or whoever in the movies use one.
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Keep talking like that Dallas and Jack Bauer is going to come over and kick your @ss.
 
D_ said:
Anybody shooting IPSC with an HK or Sig is doing so because they saw Joe Coolguy or whoever in the movies use one.
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:rolleyes:...or it may be that they have one in their safe, and want to get it out every once in a while and want to use it.;)
 
The other side of the coin is what Beltfed is alluding to. We all do not have visions of being the next Rob Leathan. It is fun to just get out and shoot. The SIG 226 qualifies to be shot in Production so why not. Robby and the top boys aren't losing sleep over my acension in IPSC's ranks. So I, like a lot of guys, go out and enjoy shooting my latest blaster which may include a SIG 226. Wouldn't be my handgun of choice as the best handgun for shooting the sport but I would have a heck of a lot of fun shooting it.

Is there a "G" level in IPSC?:D

Take Care

Bob
 
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