Is it bad to shoot lead in pistols??
- Thread starter NorthernPF
- Start date
I think "budget" is the key word here. If Glock didn't practically give away guns to cops, would it be as popular with police departments as it? I doubt it. If you say that Glock is an affordable pistol that's good enough for cops, I won't argue with you. However, "affordable pistol that's good enough for cops" is not my definition of "perfection".
Ahhh no. You are reading the quote wrong. Having a good budget allows police to purchase the right equipment. And that is why Glock has sold more guns to police depts in North American than all the rest, combined. It's also why the other companies have followed suit in making a strong polymer based pistol.
It's always easy to try to kick the big and popular guy. And easy to kick, saying such and such company offers this. Well ya, Glock guns came out 30 years ago, and it's only recently that the others are imitating to try to catch up to the market. Playing catch up while adding "innovation" such as changable back straps, ain't much innovation.
I have never said the Glock is perfect. And like someone also said,
But I believe the performance speaks for itself.
Please don't be scared to give us your definition of a "perfect" work pistol, and which dept is using it. Try to keep it to Canadian perfection.
Some police depts disagree with you:
I'd like to see them drive that thing around these Calgary roads this month.
We are living a nightmare of looking like we are in Winnipeg. Holy smokes do we have a lot of snow.
Going back to my point about marketing, it seems that Glock has been quite successful in convincing the world that it invented the polymer pistol, which of course it didn't. A Glock is nothing more than an HK VP70 (which came out 15 years earlier) with a Browning-style lockup. Pretty much every aspect of Glock 17's design that supposedly made it innovative - i.e. plastic frame, DAO trigger, polygonal barrel, 18 round mag capacity, select fire capability (Glock 18), etc. - was actually copied from HK. So much for "innovation".
No one here said Glock invented anything. But take a look at the market as to what has happened since Glock hit the streets in the late 80s, early 90s. I know, it was out before then, but the first Service in Canada gunned up with them in 92. The point is, there was nothing to seriously rival it for at least 10 years, then it was simply variations of what was already there. The inovation that Glock did was, make it work.
All of your arguments are falling flat. Saying yuk to Glock simply because they are big, isn't really an argument.
And again the challenge is there... Instead of just calling down Glock, tell us what the perfect duty pistol is being used in Canada??????
All of your arguments are falling flat. Saying yuk to Glock simply because they are big, isn't really an argument.
And again the challenge is there... Instead of just calling down Glock, tell us what the perfect duty pistol is being used in Canada??????
What they did was make it cheap. That brings us back to square one.
I don't know where you got the idea that I was "saying yuk to Glock simply because they are big". I'm not saying Glock is a crappy pistol - it's just greatly overhyped for what it is (a low-end, economy firearm - the Honda Civic of the pistol world).
Again, I'm not "calling down" Glock, I'm just pointing out that it's neither a perfect pistol, nor a particularly innovative one. And in repsonse to your "challenge", I would pick Sig p226/229 or H&K USP/P2000/P30 if I had to chose a "duty pistol".
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You certainly can use lead bullets in your Glock...I`ve been doing it since 1992, and no KA-booms....BUT, a sales rep for Glock made it quite clear, clean the barrel after every 150-200 rounds....If you can`t remember to do that, then get an after market barrel or another gun.....
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Of course you can use them. although, they will give you feeding problems. I made up some 200 SWC for my g21 and discovered that the the empty casing being ejected would strike the next rd on top of the magazine, causing the bullet to deform creating a stoppage. I switched over to jacketed ammo and never had a problem...and as for Ka-booms, i shot out a stuck bullet once by accident...and every thing held together.
"It is not wise to shoot lead through any barrel with polygonal rifling."
Rubbish. My Tanfoglio .40 cal barrel is polygonial and it has yet to show any sign of leading...period. Leading is caused by gas cutting and commercial lead bullets with hard lube are particularly prone to leading due to the lube not sealing the barrel as it should. That and some 9MM guns have somewhat wider variations in bore size. This is true of older European guns. If you cast your own, as I do, size the bullets .357 rather than .356 and you will see less leading. It also helps to use a soft lube.
Glock barrels do have to be cleaned more frequently and shooting lead is dirty given the lube burning off and generally making a mess of your feed ramp and chamber. I clean my guns after every shoot anyway so whether I shoot jacketed or lead it really doesn't make much difference.
Glock shooters have to be aware of the cleaning issue more than say 1911 shooters with normal cut rifling. Easiest way to clean lead out of the barrel is by using a strand or two of copper chor boy wrapped around an old cleaning brush. Two or three strokes and the lead is gone.
Take Care
Bob
Rubbish. My Tanfoglio .40 cal barrel is polygonial and it has yet to show any sign of leading...period. Leading is caused by gas cutting and commercial lead bullets with hard lube are particularly prone to leading due to the lube not sealing the barrel as it should. That and some 9MM guns have somewhat wider variations in bore size. This is true of older European guns. If you cast your own, as I do, size the bullets .357 rather than .356 and you will see less leading. It also helps to use a soft lube.
Glock barrels do have to be cleaned more frequently and shooting lead is dirty given the lube burning off and generally making a mess of your feed ramp and chamber. I clean my guns after every shoot anyway so whether I shoot jacketed or lead it really doesn't make much difference.
Glock shooters have to be aware of the cleaning issue more than say 1911 shooters with normal cut rifling. Easiest way to clean lead out of the barrel is by using a strand or two of copper chor boy wrapped around an old cleaning brush. Two or three strokes and the lead is gone.
Take Care
Bob
No that brings us back to your argument. The number 1 priority for a service/duty pistol is that it works. And it does that. Probably better than any other pistol. And that's what makes it a good duty pistol. The issue of it being "cheap" is irrelevent, if it is cheap as in inexpensive. If you are trying to suggest it is "cheap" as in poor quality parts, I think the lack of armourers is a testimate to that issue. It goes bang when you pull the trigger. The secondary benefits of it being, simple to maintain, controllable, adequate accuracy, etc etc also help. But it's reliability is second to none.
You already mentioned it, who actually listens to the hype? Any real shooter or agency? I don't think so. Again, just because it's popular isn't a reason to dismiss something.
Lots of holes there. Sig with it's two different trigger pulls, double, then single, is that good for general duty issue? Top end heavy. More felt recoil because of the higher slide. More parts, more problems, I think not. And then H&K polymer guns, well, they just copied the "cheap" Glocks.
If you like HK and feel that Glock has a lot of hype, apparently you haven't notice the king of hype, H&K. HK hype is legendary to those that have been around for a while. Maybe to the newbe that is sheltered, hasn't seen, or noticed, but Heckler and Koch invented the elitist hype attitude for the firearms industry. And from a company that makes most of their guns out of stamped sheet metal, we can discuss cheap, overpriced guns all day long.
LEAD BULLETS;
I for one have shot hundreds of thousands over the years....In everything from .22cf to .45/70 in rifles and .32 to various .44 & .45 calibers in pistol
In the days that police departments used .38spcl and .357 we reloaded millions of rounds using lead bullets....
I use only a very hard lead alloy, 85% lead, 13% antimony, 2% tin
For those using wheel weights simply add 2% Tin....
IF your alloy is hard your bullets will work in poly barrels....
Leading is very minimal.... Proper lubricant is a must....
Only my opinion
John
I for one have shot hundreds of thousands over the years....In everything from .22cf to .45/70 in rifles and .32 to various .44 & .45 calibers in pistol
In the days that police departments used .38spcl and .357 we reloaded millions of rounds using lead bullets....
I use only a very hard lead alloy, 85% lead, 13% antimony, 2% tin
For those using wheel weights simply add 2% Tin....
IF your alloy is hard your bullets will work in poly barrels....
Leading is very minimal.... Proper lubricant is a must....
Only my opinion
John
I'm no longer sure what you're trying to argue. Are you suggesting that price is an irrelevant factor in police departments' procurement decisions? So you're saying that some bureaucrat in charge of buying guns would not pick a suboptimal firearm because of budgetary constraints? If that's your position, I respectfully disagree.
Says who? Gaston Glock? Cool-aid drinkers on glocktalk.com?
Not sure where you're getting your information. Sig can be had with consistent trigger pull (DAK) just like any other modern firearm. It's actually less top heavy than the lighter, polymer-framed Glock. And if you shoot Sig P226 and Glock 17 side by side, it will be immediately apparent that the former has noticeably less recoil.
No, it's actually the other way around. HK invented the polymer pistol in 1970 and Glock copied it 15 years later. Read my post about HK VP70 on the previous page.
The big difference between HK hype and Glock hype is that the former was not generated by a marketing department. HK hype was stirred up when the SAS, SOCOM, and certain other noted organizations started using HK firearms. Conversely, Glock firearms can primarily be found on the hips of guys and gals who's daily routine consists of handing out traffic tickets and making runs to the local Tim Hortons. That's where the Glock marketing department steps in.
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Your statement is that Glock is "cheap". You've said it a few times. I know of a few large depts in Canada, that the price was not the concern. Glock was bought after some fairly expensive side by side testing and chosen as a result of the recommendations as brought forward by the subject matter experts who conducted the testing. The protocols were consistent and fair, and quite frankly not conducted with the expectation the Glock would win. But it did. And I've spoken/dealt with numerous of those people and discussed the issues. I'm satisfied that the right pistol was chosen at the time.
I personally don't go to any other gun discussion forum, other than this one. I don't have the time. I've had a short discussion and drink with Mr Glock and I was too busy noticing his "niece" on his arm. He didn't convince me of anything. The other forums, you will have to tell me what they say, as you seem to be the subject matter expert on hype.
From testing that I've done, not by reading magazines.
So that's the argument. Cool SAS guys use HK, and slugo cops use Glock.
Now there is a quality argument. I think we've reached our pinnacle on this one.
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i for one am glad that most police departments have adopted the glock 22 in .40 smith and wesson cal with a full 15 round magazine.
back in the early 80's, i was in IPSC using a 45 and the saskatoon police officers still had their 38 revolvers, leaving them outgunned in any serious situations on the streets.
not sure about budgets, but i still wonder why the RCMP are still using 9mm when their officers work the highways (at least let them select a 10mm or a 357 revolver as a personal choice for carry) or why they went from a sig to the heavier smith auto.
as for lead, i used to cast in my younger days, and swear by the hard cast swc for the 45.
i used to fire a few jackets at the end of the shooting session with the understanding that it might scrape out excess lead in the barrel, before taking home to clean, still not sure if it was by imagination though
anyone still using the lewis lead remover like i am, or have the new chemical removers replace the mechanical efforts?
back in the early 80's, i was in IPSC using a 45 and the saskatoon police officers still had their 38 revolvers, leaving them outgunned in any serious situations on the streets.
not sure about budgets, but i still wonder why the RCMP are still using 9mm when their officers work the highways (at least let them select a 10mm or a 357 revolver as a personal choice for carry) or why they went from a sig to the heavier smith auto.
as for lead, i used to cast in my younger days, and swear by the hard cast swc for the 45.
i used to fire a few jackets at the end of the shooting session with the understanding that it might scrape out excess lead in the barrel, before taking home to clean, still not sure if it was by imagination though
anyone still using the lewis lead remover like i am, or have the new chemical removers replace the mechanical efforts?
