3 1/2 vs. 3 vs. 2 3/4

[TheCoachZed]

How much difference do you notice between these powder loads? I've only shot 2 3/4 in the various 12 gauges I have shot, so I'm curious. One of these days I'll probably upgrade my shotgun and want to know what to look for.

I assume that 3 inch shells are the waterfowl standard with the advent of steel shot. How much better are they than the 2 3/4? How much better are the 3 1/2 shells over the 3 inch shells? And how much more do they kick? Or is this all an Emporer's New Clothes, "My gun is bigger than your gun" argument?

Hope my questions made some sense here.....

 

[machinistbutler]

3.5 in hurt

 

[sheephunter]

They all have their place and when used within their performance envelope each is very effective. As a general rule, (of which there are always exceptions) especially with steel, a 3" will give you more range than a 2 3/4 and a 3.5" will give you more range than a 3". How much is debateable but more payload and more velocity (again a generalization to which there are exceptions) gives you more range.

For shooting decoying birds you are likely to see no advantage but for pass shooting or even birds that aren't decoying well, you likely will.

 

[dilly]

If you shoot a lot of steel at waterfowl at moderate to far ranges, 3.5 inch is nice to have and really doesnt kick too bad because steel is much lighter than lead. 3.5 turkey loads kick HARD because they are 2 oz of lead but they really penetrate through heavy bush and smoke turkeys good. 3.5 number 4 buck has 54 pellets...yeah, 54 pellets and it rolls a coyote over! 3.5 buckshot has 18 pellets (2 3/4 has 9)...thats twice as many pellets. It also kicks but kills close range driven deer DEAD!
I went to an Extrema a few years ago and never looked back. Sure, a 2 3/4 gun can do all of the above given perfect circumstances but I sure like having "heap big medicine" on hand.

 

[stubblejumper]

3.5 buckshot has 18 pellets (2 3/4 has 9).

There are also 2-3/4" shells that have 12- 00 pellets.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=474

And those 12 pellets leave the muzzle 190fps faster than the 18 pellets leave the muzzle of the 3.5" gun.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx

So in reality,the 2-3/4" buckshot load has 12 pellets at 200ftlbs per pellet or 2400ftlbs of energy,while the 3-1/2" load has 18 pellets at 145ftlbs per pellet for a total of 2610ftlbs.

 

[dutchhunter]

i love my 3.5 inch loads for turkey hunting and find three inch good for water fowl short ones for rabbits and small birds even wood ducks and teal over a pound it is just a matter of finding a load that does the job the way you want short shells would have killed every turkey i have ever got but i like the added power DUJTCH

 

[sheephunter]

There are also 2-3/4" shells that have 12- 00 pellets.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=474

And those 12 pellets leave the muzzle 190fps faster than the 18 pellets leave the muzzle of the 3.5" gun.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx

So in reality,the 2-3/4" buckshot load has 12 pellets at 200ftlbs per pellet or 2400ftlbs of energy,while the 3-1/2" load has 18 pellets at 145ftlbs per pellet for a total of 2610ftlbs.

Come on Stubble....you jumping into the obscure reference frey.....it must be something about this shotgun forum that brings that out in people. The 3.5" 00 buck is hardly a common round and you cited one example......Winchester makes a 3.5" 00 buck that spits pellets at 1450fps and I'm sure ther are countless other examples. You do the calculations if you want but I'll bet it's considerably higher than the 2 3/4" example you posted....

And as you are very unlikely to ever have every pellet hit the target...what relevance does total energy have anyhow.......

 

[pharaoh2]

I'll give you my experiance. I shoot mostly 2 3/4 inch loads but last year I bought up a bunch of 3" stuff and shot those. I no longer own a 3 1/2 but I did, so here are my ramblings from the last couple years:

Chances are if your going to buy 3 or 3 1/2 inch shells they will be fairly good stuff. I've shot alot of 'junk' 2 3/4" stuff. They still make it, an example is the Winchester Dryloc I shot this season. I still had some kicking around from years back. Most of the 3 or 3 1/2 is good right from the get go. I still like 2 3/4 but only better quality stuff like Kent. Most of the 3" stuff I've shot worked pretty well for me except for some Black Cloud, it jammed on extraction. Never fire off a 3 1/2 inch load while walking on a wet, angled plank to a duck blind...You'll get wet and speak in a high tone for awhile.

I sold my 3 1/2" gun after I decided someone else could make better use of it then me. If I feel I need or want more power, the 3" loads are plenty. I prefer heavier payloads for denser patterns and have always had good luck with Kent Fassteel. I have also gone to large shot almost exclusivly. BB and such. It may be big, but it drops birds. I used to shoot #2 and #4, and I never had as much luck. Now a healthy dose of BB shot drops my birds and I don't have any regrets. And though we've argued this before, I still feel a heavier pellet kills better. But anyways, those are just my findings.

 

[stubblejumper]

The 3.5" 00 buck is hardly a common round and you cited one example....

Example 2

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/buckshot/express.asp

Once again the Velocity is significantly higher with the 2-3/4" load.

And as you are very unlikely to ever have every pellet hit the target...what relevance does total energy have anyhow..

The energy per pellet is very relevant.The more energy each pellet has,the more damage it does.The more damage done to the vitals,the quicker and cleaner the kill.Three pellets at higher velocity could do as much damage as four pellets at lower velocity.

 

[sheephunter]

Example 2



Once again the Velocity is significantly higher with the 2-3/4" load.



The energy per pellet is very relevant.The more energy each pellet has,the more damage it does.The more damage done to the vitals,the quicker and cleaner the kill.Three pellets at higher velocity could do as much damage as four pellets at lower velocity.

Energy per pellet is very relevant but that not what I asked...I asked what relevance total payload energy had as you quoted. Good try though.....

My Winchester load still trumps your Remington and Federal loads in spades. Let's talk about handloading within SAMMI specs so we aren't relying the whims of ammo manufacturers and a relatively obscure load.......please don't try to convince me that the 2 3/4" can deliver its maximum payload at higher velocities than a 3.5" can...because it can't!

Three pellets at higher velocity could do as much damage as four pellets at lower velocity

Please tell me even you realize there is far more to it than that....

 

[stubblejumper]

Energy per pellet is very relevant but that not what I asked...I asked what relevance total payload energy had as you quoted.

If you were in a self defense situation at close range,as in a bear attack,it very well could be relevant.Or at close range on a deer(where legal) using a full choke.Less pellets at higher velocity can do almost as much damage as more pellets at less velocity.In fact if the slower pellets don't make it to the vitals,the fewer,faster pellets could do more damage.

My Winchester load still trumps your Remington and Federal loads in spades.

Using your own words.

The 3.5" 00 buck is hardly a common round and you cited one example....

Whereas I cited two examples.Since 3.5" 00 buckshot is hardly common,I could find only three examples,so unless you can find more,my two examples represent the majority of 3.5" 00 buckshot loads.

Let's talk about handloading within SAMMI specs so we aren't relying the whims of ammo manufacturers and a relatively obscure load.....

Unlike centerfires,the vast majority of people do not reload buckshot,therefore the vast majority of people have no choice but to rely on the ammo manufacturers.I myself keep a box in my pocket while bird hunting in case I find myself on the wrong side of a bear,but I may carry the same box for several years.The only other time that I have ever used 00 buckshot was while running bear baits.I never found the need to ever use them,and still have that same box.Therefor,it would be foolish for me to even consider reloading buckshot.

.please don't try to convince me that the 2 3/4" can deliver its maximum payload at higher velocities than a 3.5" can...because it can't!

As previously stated,unless you can prove otherwise,it appears that the majority of manufacturers do load the 2-3/4" load to higher velocities.And since most people do not load their own buckshot,those are the loads that most people are forced to use.


My point being,that in some circumstances,the 3-1/2" does not provide a huge advantage over the 3",or even the 2-3/4".For waterfowl using steel,I would be using 3" myself,but for all other uses,I will be using 2-3/4" loads.

 

[sheephunter]

The point being that a 3.5" can and does deliver, factory or handload, more pellets at higher velocity...unless you can find something to prove me wrong.

 

[Covey Ridge]

The point being that a 3.5" can and does deliver, factory or handload, more pellets at higher velocity...unless you can find something to prove me wrong.

I think that you have not proven the above statement is true in all and even most cases.

 

[Covey Ridge]

How much better are the 3 1/2 shells over the 3 inch shells? And how much more do they kick?

I think that the 3 1/2 inch may only be better in theory. I think that its only practical use with steel loads is realized on big geese at longer than average range and then only by those skilled enough to deliver the payload.
I think for most, the clunky guns involved and the mega recoil will not result in more birds in the bag but less. The 3 1/2 will throw more steel and burn more powder and cost more and sure as hell kicks a lot more. More is not alway better.

PS By clunky I do not mean to offend users of the SBE2 as it is not clunky. I have owned the Benelli and it is an exception to the clunky statement. It is as sweet as a nice upland gun. That said, I think that one may try the big 3 1/2 loads from time to time and it is nice to have that option, but life is too short for me to feel the need and/or want to light those big candles.

 

[pharaoh2]

The point being that a 3.5" can and does deliver, factory or handload, more pellets at higher velocity...unless you can find something to prove me wrong.

I don't see it like that. A 3 1/2 inch shell will throw the same amount of the same size of shot at higher velocities than it's smaller counterpart. Really you need to compare it to a 10 gauge. It won't shoot the same charge as fast, but it will do one or the other.

I pulled these numbers off of Kent's website.

If your going to shoot a 1 1/4 ounce 2 3/4 inch load of #4 shot at 1300 FPS, you can shoot the same load with a 3 (1425 fps) or a 3.5 (1625 fps) but if I wanted to shoot these bigger guns, I would step up to higher weight of charges. A 3.5 shooting the same shot but with a charge of 1 9/16 oz will go at 1300 fps.

So no, it won't fire more pellets faster, but it will fire the same amount faster. But as far as I'm concerned, it's a waste of space. I'd rather throw more pellets and increase my chances of a hit as opposed to my pellets getting there faster. But that's just me.

 

[sheephunter]

I don't see it like that. A 3 1/2 inch shell will throw the same amount of the same size of shot at higher velocities than it's smaller counterpart. Really you need to compare it to a 10 gauge. It won't shoot the same charge as fast, but it will do one or the other.

I pulled these numbers off of Kent's website.

If your going to shoot a 1 1/4 ounce 2 3/4 inch load of #4 shot at 1300 FPS, you can shoot the same load with a 3 (1425 fps) or a 3.5 (1625 fps) but if I wanted to shoot these bigger guns, I would step up to higher weight of charges. A 3.5 shooting the same shot but with a charge of 1 9/16 oz will go at 1300 fps.

So no, it won't fire more pellets faster, but it will fire the same amount faster. But as far as I'm concerned, it's a waste of space. I'd rather throw more pellets and increase my chances of a hit as opposed to my pellets getting there faster. But that's just me.

Actually if search around for the maximum load within SAMMI specs for all three lengths you'll see that you can trow more weight faster....one or two examples does not a rule make. I'm just talking maximums here within SAMMI specs.......you can always find examples to the contrary of average loads but not the maximums.

 

[stubblejumper]

Actually if search around for the maximum load within SAMMI specs for all three lengths you'll see that you can trow more weight faster....one or two examples does not a rule make. I'm just talking maximums here within SAMMI specs.......you can always find examples to the contrary of average loads but not the maximums.

Of course the 3-1/2" can throw more shot faster if all shells are loaded to the SAAMI pressure.However,as I posted previously,the vast majority of shotgun hunters buy factory loads,so they have to settle for the loads that they can find at the store.Given those loads,the average person will not see a huge advantage by using the 3-1/2" loads.Where geese are concerned,there is some advantage,but in many cases,the advantage is small,and is not worth the extra cost or recoil to most hunters.

 

[sheephunter]

Of course the 3-1/2" can throw more shot faster if all shells are loaded to the SAAMI pressure.However,as I posted previously,the vast majority of shotgun hunters buy factory loads,so they have to settle for the loads that they can find at the store.Given those loads,the average person will not see a huge advantage by using the 3-1/2" loads.Where geese are concerned,there is some advantage,but in many cases,the advantage is small,and is not worth the extra cost or recoil to most hunters.

Other than the 00 Buck and other lead loads, it's actually pretty easy to find hot 3.5" steel loads...that's what it was designed for....but I agree that the necessity of 3.5" shells is rare but that still doesn't change the fact they are better suited to longer ranges.....

 

[stubblejumper]

Actually,I hadn't looked much at steel,because I haven't hunted waterfowl lately,but now that I check the manufacturers sites,the steel loads seem to top out at 1550fps for both 3" and 3-1/2" loads for most manufacturers.So using the commonly available factory loads,the 3-1/2" loads only seem to add payload,not velocity.Then again capacity does increase pattern density,so I can see the advantage for long range waterfowl hunting.
Then again,I intend to do all of my own shotgun hunting with a 20gauge.Of course I will be limiting my shot distances to maintain a reasonable pattern density.

 

[dilly]

I know this much to be true...I kill way more geese and ducks stone dead with 3.5 and I put many more holes in deer with 3.5 buckshot and they friggin DIE!! I dont know about velocity...all I care about is holes!
The big-uns are clunky though. I prefer a nice 20 ga SxS in the uplands.

But as I stated before...A nice SxS is the way to go in the uplands!