handloading disappointment

Onagoth said:
I weighed exactly 38 grains of powder using a digital scale
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Perhaps verify the weight of the charge with a beam scale. Digital scales can be sensitive and/or have calibration issues.

Try to replicate factory ammo - bullet weight, OAL.

Can pinch a piece of tape closed on your cleaning rod, run it through the bore and count revolutions to determine rate of twist - then use this to evaluate bullet weight.
 
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Perhaps verify the weight of the charge with a beam scale. Digital scales can be sensitive and/or have calibration issues.
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Even if the scale was not properly calibrated,which is unlikely if test weights were used to check the scale before using it,a small difference in the weight of the powder charge is not likely going to cause groups to open up several inches at 100 yards.
 
stubblejumper said:
How do you know that 36.5gr will be safe in his rifle with either of those powders and 55gr bullets?Do you make that assumption because one manual lists a load of 36.5gr with those powders and a 55gr bullet?I happen to have three manuals that list maximum loads of no more than 35 gr with 55gr bullets,and those powders,and the starting loads are 30gr to 31gr.
Just because a load is listed in a manual does not mean that it will be safe in all guns chambered for that cartridge.And when that load is above the maximum load listed in a few other manuals,the odds are that it will produce excessive pressure in some guns.



That load may have been safe in one rifle,with one lot# of powder,and with one particular primer and bullet.That does not mean that the load will be safe with another lot# of powder,or in another gun.Hence the warning to start with a starting load and work up while watching for pressure signs.
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Would never want to give someone dangerous load data The data I get comes from a few sources on the net and a couple paper manuals. That is why I do suggest starting at the lightest load and working up. Common sense has to prevail when thinking of working up loads for an unsafe or a firearm in poor condition. One point I did not bring up was to check for pressure signs as stated above. Reloading has opened a new door for me (all self taught) in the sport so Enjoy be safe and remember to double check and use common sense when reloading.
Pete......:)
 
Would never want to give someone dangerous load data The data I get comes from a few sources on the net and a couple paper manuals.
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Loads published online or in manuals can be unsafe in some firearms.Hence the disclaimers about working up loads.

Common sense has to prevail when thinking of working up loads for an unsafe or a firearm in poor condition.
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Common sense needs to prevail when working up loads for any firearm,as loads published in a manual can cause excessive pressure even in a brand new very well made rifle.In fact the highest pressures are often developed in high quality aftermarket barrels with chambers that aren't oversize as is common with many factory rifles.I have owned a few rifles that showed pressure signs with less than maximum loads from the manuals,and those rifles were all high quality firearms,some factory rifles,and some customs.In fact,I just recently discovered pressure signs with a load that was 2 grains below the maximum load published in most manuals with my new 700-5R milspec.Knowing that pressure signs usually don't occur until well past acceptable pressures,I will be reducing the powder charge by at least 1.5 grains,and possibly more.That will mean that I will be at least 3.5 grains below the maximum load published in the manual.
The people that look for pressure signs,and know how to recognize them,seldom have problems.It is the people that blindly trust that all loads published in manuals or online will be safe in all firearms that usually get the most unpleasant surprises.
 
The difference between the nadlaod and factory is too big. Rifling is trying to tell you something. probably that the twist is too slow.

You mentioned OAL. OAL in a book a a suggestion based on THEIR rifle. Seat out long and then seat deeper and deeper until rifing stops engraving the bullets. Seat anotehr 20 thou and use that for your load development. After you got the powder and powder charge figured out, thry some other depths as a fine-tuning.

To prove it is twist, see if there is a 55 grain bullet that is semi-pointed (shorter). If it shoots better, your twist is too slow for 55.
 
The US army, found that a 1-14 twist rate just stabilised a 55 grn bullet at 3050 fps in the 5.56x45 (.223 Rem). The bullet would tumble for just about any reason. That being said, accuracy was great. Bench rest shooters have found that bullets shoot best in twists that are just slightly better than marginal.

The US army changed their issue bullet weights a few times and also changed their twist rates to accomodate the heavier weight and longer bullets. The 1-14 twist rate was chosen for flat base bullets. If you have the 1-14 twist rate in your bbl and are useing boat tail bullets, you may have to go to a flat base design or a lighter bullet.

I had a Remington Custom Shop chambered in 223Rem, with varmint weight bbl that wouldn't shoot 55grn boat tails, but would shoot the flat base 55s no problem. I didn't go for a lighter bullet because the 55 flatbase HP design worked so well on gophers and other varmints that it would have been a waste of time. I'd rather be shooting or hunting than loading. That rifle shot into 1/2 t0 3/4 inch for at least 7000 rounds. The only changes ever made to the loading was to seat the bullets as close to the lands as possible as the throat eroded. The closer the better.

bearhunter
 
bearhunter said:
The US army, found that a 1-14 twist rate just stabilised a 55 grn bullet at 3050 fps in the 5.56x45 (.223 Rem). The bullet would tumble for just about any reason. That being said, accuracy was great. Bench rest shooters have found that bullets shoot best in twists that are just slightly better than marginal.

The US army changed their issue bullet weights a few times and also changed their twist rates to accomodate the heavier weight and longer bullets. The 1-14 twist rate was chosen for flat base bullets. If you have the 1-14 twist rate in your bbl and are useing boat tail bullets, you may have to go to a flat base design or a lighter bullet.

I had a Remington Custom Shop chambered in 223Rem, with varmint weight bbl that wouldn't shoot 55grn boat tails, but would shoot the flat base 55s no problem. I didn't go for a lighter bullet because the 55 flatbase HP design worked so well on gophers and other varmints that it would have been a waste of time. I'd rather be shooting or hunting than loading. That rifle shot into 1/2 t0 3/4 inch for at least 7000 rounds. The only changes ever made to the loading was to seat the bullets as close to the lands as possible as the throat eroded. The closer the better.

bearhunter
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My rifle has a 1:14 twist and I was using flat base v-maxes. But thanks for the thought.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I will definitely try some different powders and bullets.

My confusion came from the fact that I didn't think any handload would shoot that bad, even after considering it might not be the right combination for the rifle in question.

Don't worry about the charge weight, I always start at the minimum prescribed load and always check cartridges for pressure problems. In my case above, 38.0 grains was recommended as a starting charge in the latest Lyman reloading book

Thanks again
 
Are you sure about 38 being a starting charge? My Lee manual shows 37 as max. for 55 gr. Best check into it, the 22-250 is a hot round to begin with. This is a serious matter.
 
Yes......

cosmic said:
Are you sure about 38 being a starting charge? My Lee manual shows 37 as max. for 55 gr. Best check into it, the 22-250 is a hot round to begin with. This is a serious matter.
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I just picked up the NEW Hodgdon Reloading Manual 2009 just over a week ago.

I reconfirmed that 38 grs is the STARTING LOAD and the published MAX LOAD is 41.0 grs.

I referred back to my 2004 Hodgdon guide and the loads are exactly as stated above.

My Hornady Manual 7th Edition printed in 2007 has for 55gr bullets and H380 starting at 35.0 grs with a max of 40.6 grs.
 
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Yes handloads can shoot very badly. Hodgdon's load data shows 38 gr as the start load on a Speer 55 gr bullet. How's your pressure look(read primer). Min loads don't mean accurate. Bullet seating depth is important IMO. X2 Ganderite (start at .020 off the lands.) Work it up 0.2 gr at a time, watch for pressure signs, 5 shot groups. Did you try moving up from 38 gr? And you mmight just have to switch powder, bullet, or both. Good luck!
 
I haven't tried increasing charges yet, and I haven't noted any pressure problems when examining fired cartridges.

Would increasing the powder charge really shrink the accuracy that much, considering I am getting 5-8" groups on minimum charges?
 
cycbb486 said:
I just picked up the NEW Hodgdon Reloading Manual 2009 just over a week ago.

I reconfirmed that 38 grs is the STARTING LOAD and the published MAX LOAD is 41.0 grs.

I referred back to my 2004 Hodgdon guide and the loads are exactly as stated above.

My Hornady Manual 7th Edition printed in 2007 has for 55gr bullets and H380 starting at 35.0 grs with a max of 40.6 grs.
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I'm as surprised as cosmic on this - my Savage 110 started to show pressure signs at 38.5grs of H380 with 55gr VMax's, so I stopped there.
 
Can't tell until you try. Trial and error is the only way to get results reloading. You already have the components, so I reccomend you set up your dies for .020 freebore to start, and work up a load. Then if it's crap it's crap. You could do loads for a few kinds of powder and bullet combos, go to the range and shoot them. KEEP RECORDS! Keep your targets and mark all the info about the load on the back(including OAL and if you pooched any of the shots). Put them in a binder. You will notice trends, and figure out what the rifle likes. If you don't keep records, you will start from scratch every time and be frustrated.
 
Onagoth said:
I haven't tried increasing charges yet, and I haven't noted any pressure problems when examining fired cartridges.

Would increasing the powder charge really shrink the accuracy that much, considering I am getting 5-8" groups on minimum charges?
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Normally if a load shoots that bad there is no use trying to tweak it. Change the bullet, minimum. I wouldn't pick this particular powder to learn how to load with either.
H380 is inconsistant lot to lot, which is why published data varies 5 grains on maximum loads. The last 22/250 that I used H380 in topped out at 36 grains with a 52, or 2 grains under your starting loads. Your load could be very mild or very hot. As a historical couriousity the powder got it's name from Bruce H's load of 38.0 grains of this powder with a 52 grain bullet in a 22/250.(22 Varminter) It was surplus stuff then.
 
Okay, I didn't read through pages 2 or 3 thus i'm a very sorry if someone mentioned this. In the original post, you mentioned that you did absolutly nothing to the brand new brass :eek:

I may be way off base here, but EVERY time i get new brass, i full length resize them the very first time (then switch to neck sizing for a bolt action every load thereafter) and check overall case length on every one; trimming each one to the same length as stated in your load data.

Now that you've shot these first loads, you may have better luck now that each case is fire-formed to your chamber. Neck size each case and check for overal case length. Very important to be as consistent from round to round. The closer you can get to getting everything being identical, the better you are to have everything repeat identical and end up with only 1 ragged hole.

Lets think of it this way, if every single thing was the absolutly same from trigger pull, to bullet seating depth, to case length, to powder, to primer, then what your doing is reducing the number of things that can cause the bullet not to fly exactly the same path as the one before it.

And lets also not touch the idea that it could be shooter related :redface:
 
You will get that rifle to shoot - but you will have to patient.

This is what I did for both my .270 and .223. It takes a while, and is a real PITA. If you are set on the current power / bullet combo - with EVERYTHING being consistent (OAL, Primer, Brass prep) do the following:

Make 5 round of the low end of the scale. Then 5 more rounds every .2 of a powder increment. i.e:

38 grain x 5 rounds
38.2 grain x 5 rounds
38.4 grain x 5 rounds
38.6 grain x yadda yadda (and so one).
...until you reach the max charge (or until the primer flattens - whatever comes first).

It seems like a waste, I know. You will probably end up with 50+ rounds for this experiment.

Any-who,

Then disappear to the range for about 4 hours for a regime of shoot & cool down for 5 round groups. My targets are just 8.5x11 paper with a dot on it (it makes it easier to see the groups from the bench without walking).

IF your rifle likes the bullet, you will know, as the groups will successively shrink or grow as you progress through your test loadings.

A couple of things:

1. Don't rush your shots
2. Always hold the rifle the same way

It doesn't need to be 5 rounds per load range sample - it can be three. (I prefer 5 because should I get one flyer out of 5, schitt happens. If I get one flier out of three..was it the rifle? Me? Divine intervention? Who knows, right?

I saw my groups go from what could be equated to a shotgun pattern - down to the size of a dime, then open back up again for my .223, and my .270 went from an "OK" group to WOW in just .6 of a grain. I would of never known that unless I spent the time (and $$).

Or, you might get lucky with someone's pet load here off the board.

Good luck, Hakx
 
Onagoth said:
I haven't tried increasing charges yet, and I haven't noted any pressure problems when examining fired cartridges.

Would increasing the powder charge really shrink the accuracy that much, considering I am getting 5-8" groups on minimum charges?
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If a combination is going to shoot, it will show promise right out of the gate, then continue to improve as you close in on the sweet spot. If you are observing 8" groups at 100 yards, from a published load, it's time to change powder or bullets.

I use some H-380, and its meters nice, and produces good accuracy in the loads I use. Just pay heed to Doglegs comments and don't consider powder from a different lot number to be identical, but this applies to all powders.
 
Many people here probably know that Bruce Hodgdon named H380 from his apparent delight at the accuracy of 38.0gr of that powder behind a 55gr. bullet. Perhaps even the OP read that somewhere.;)

A lot has changed since then, including the lot# of the original powder. And even if you were to use the exact same components in the exact same model rifle, it would still mean nothing until you tried it with YOUR components in YOUR rifle.

It might turn out to be a good powder when you are done testing all the variables. But expecting great results on the first handful of components you threw together is likely one of your first great lessons you will learn with regards to handloading.:)

Now that that is out of the way, carry on. And don't write off the powder just yet.

My first suggestion is Magnum primers.;) Or a hotter primer depending on what you are already using.
 
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