S&W 29-2 KaBoom Heavy Pic Warning
- Thread starter RockChucker
- Start date
I don't see any outward signs of excess pressure on the faces & primers of the fired cartridges that would indicate that the load development was fcuked.
I would have to guess a multiple charge or split case.
Some people don't inspect their fired brass anywhere near careful enough.
Life Memberships: NRA, GOA, CSSA, NFA, OFAH
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The problem is, the round that you need to see isn't there. It went the way of the topstrap.
I would say that there was a double charge.
Double charged indeed...Lucky your friend. I always reload my .44mag on single press and check each load. Hope that will never happen to me. In my last IPSC match, I saw a Glock who was load with badly crimp 9MM load. That round seize the slide to the barrel, scrap all internal part and blow the trigger somewhere down the range. The shooter was lightly hurt on his trigger finger and hand. But , he was shocked. Just hope that he will not stop shooting.
Yves
Yves
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
whats that only about 5x more then spec
its threads like this that encourage me to stay with my single stage presses
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec
I just loaded 21.3gr of WIN231 into a .44 mag case.
It could EASILY go "undetected" during reloading due to inattention.
21.3gr is about 1/4" below the top of the casing, so you could easily seat a bullet on top of it without realizing there was a severe overload of powder.
My Lee manual gives 11.0gr MAX load for a 240gr "cast" bullet.
It could EASILY go "undetected" during reloading due to inattention.
21.3gr is about 1/4" below the top of the casing, so you could easily seat a bullet on top of it without realizing there was a severe overload of powder.
My Lee manual gives 11.0gr MAX load for a 240gr "cast" bullet.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
In all likely hood it was a double charge, but I like to play devil's advocate, so lets consider another possibility.
We have two cartridges that apparently fired simultaneously. There is the fired cartridge at the 12:00 position that is no longer with the gun, and the cartridge that was at the 1:00 position. The cartridge that was at the 11:00 position was a previously fired round squashed by the ka-boom. It is not impossible that the round at 1:00 had a high primer that fired from being dragged along the recoil shield. The bullet from that cartridge would have been partially blocked by the part of the frame that the barrel screws into and pressure would have dramatically risen as a result. If this coincided with the firing of the round under the hammer, as could of happened had the gun been fired DA, there might have been enough combined pressure between the two chambers to split the cylinder and tear off the top strap without an overload being involved.
Consider the pic looking down on the top of the cylinder. Here is the problem with the overload scenario. There is brass from the 1:00 cartridge over the web between the two chambers. If the ka-boom was the result of the round under the hammer being an overload, the brass of the round at 1:00 should be squashed away from that side of the chamber.
We have two cartridges that apparently fired simultaneously. There is the fired cartridge at the 12:00 position that is no longer with the gun, and the cartridge that was at the 1:00 position. The cartridge that was at the 11:00 position was a previously fired round squashed by the ka-boom. It is not impossible that the round at 1:00 had a high primer that fired from being dragged along the recoil shield. The bullet from that cartridge would have been partially blocked by the part of the frame that the barrel screws into and pressure would have dramatically risen as a result. If this coincided with the firing of the round under the hammer, as could of happened had the gun been fired DA, there might have been enough combined pressure between the two chambers to split the cylinder and tear off the top strap without an overload being involved.
Consider the pic looking down on the top of the cylinder. Here is the problem with the overload scenario. There is brass from the 1:00 cartridge over the web between the two chambers. If the ka-boom was the result of the round under the hammer being an overload, the brass of the round at 1:00 should be squashed away from that side of the chamber.
Interesting theory and definatly a possibility. Looking at this picture the brass from the cartridge at the 1 oclock position is deformed over the chamber wall at the 12 oclock position which indicates to me that the 1 oclock cartridge detonated after the 12 oclock cartridge.
Only 2 went off. The one at the left, looking from the case head, was already fired.
just having some fun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
there is also the possibility that a light crimp on the bullet caused it to move and created or was part of the problem
bullet in line with the barrel backed out (causing a problem in it self) & next in line was also backed out and when the first one went off it set off the one next to it. it would explain the direction brass flowed
similar to a black powder revolver setting off the one next to it
it could also be primer related
or a double charge
or it could have been the first round loaded and been a different powder left in the hopper
or something else
bullet in line with the barrel backed out (causing a problem in it self) & next in line was also backed out and when the first one went off it set off the one next to it. it would explain the direction brass flowed
similar to a black powder revolver setting off the one next to it
it could also be primer related
or a double charge
or it could have been the first round loaded and been a different powder left in the hopper
or something else
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Interesting theory and definatly a possibility. Looking at this picture the brass from the cartridge at the 1 oclock position is deformed over the chamber wall at the 12 oclock position which indicates to me that the 1 oclock cartridge detonated after the 12 oclock cartridge.
It's a matter of trying to determine what happened first. In blasting we consider a time interval of less than 8 milliseconds between components of a blast to be a single simultaneous event despite the fact that one thing must happen to cause the next thing to happen. I am unable to say which chamber fired first, but clearly the combined pressure of both rounds acted upon the gun. probably the 12:00 cartridge did fire first, but how then did the brass from the 1:00 round come to be across the web between the two chambers? If the 12:00 round went first, flame cutting across the web to the 1:00 chamber should have cut away the brass, yet one piece of the case is vertical and another lies across the web. There should have been no brass at the point of the flame cutting to lie across the web. There is no brass where the base of the bullet would have been. We know that when a cartridge fires that the powder column is driven into the base of the bullet, so at the base of the bullet is where we would expect to see the most flame cutting of the cartridge that fires first, due to the fact that the powder is displaced to the front of the cartridge. The fact that the brass of the 1:00 round is turned up and rearwards is evidence that the cylinder had failed and lifted away before all the pressure had fully escaped. The brass lying across the web of the two chambers suggests to me that the 1:00 round and the 12:00 round fired very closely together, but regardless of which chamber fired first, the cylinder had not completely split away or the brass would have been gone from the 1:00 chamber as well. It would have been interesting to have recovered the top strap and the outside wall of the cylinder.
We can also see a difference in the metal of the webs between the 1:00 & 12:00 chambers and the outside web of the 11:00 chamber. You can see that the metal on the outside wall of the 11:00 chamber has been discolored from the heat caused by the steel being violently torn away. The cylinder failed on the right side due to excessive pressure of two opposite chambers firing very closely together then lastly the final web failed on the left side of the gun as it was torn away rather than being directly acted on by the gas pressure. Conceivably, had the ka-boom happened on the first shot rather than a subsequent shot, 3 chambers could have fired simultaneously.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Double charge of 231, easy to do with a fast powder in a large case.
There is a reason that 2400 & 296 are "the" .44Mag powders.
Luckily I was shown the error of my ways before I had a similar problem with 231 in .357, I said "it's a book load" and my reloading mentor said "so what, dangerous is dangerous".
Besides, small charges in large cases results in inconsistant ignition variations which are noticeable when changing the method of presentation of the gun. If your friend raised the gun from muzzle down and fires, he will notice a distinct difference from trying the muzzle up to horizontal presentations.
In reduced charge loads (fast powders) in rifles, it is common to use a filler to keep the powder charge back rear the primer.
Boomer, the pressure peaks are very short lived and if there is a rupture the pressures are reduced extremely quickly. We are talking about actual pressures, not just a pressure wave.
There is no question 2 cylinders fired, by I would say the second cylinder, 1 o'clock, fired after due to gas cutting through the casing. The powder residue in that cylinder is also black, typically associated with low pressure combustion of powder. Some of that "steel colouring" could also be soot from the second cartridge.
BTW, did he hit the target with that last shot?
There is no question 2 cylinders fired, by I would say the second cylinder, 1 o'clock, fired after due to gas cutting through the casing. The powder residue in that cylinder is also black, typically associated with low pressure combustion of powder. Some of that "steel colouring" could also be soot from the second cartridge.
BTW, did he hit the target with that last shot?
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