Breech seating bullets

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How many people here have breech seated their bullets for their black powder cartriage rifle?..there are a couple of ways to do it,at the muzzle end(with a guide) or at the breech end.I am tempted to try both, but breech seems more accurate..Any input?


TKS
OOPs
 
I have tried it; didn't seem to get any better accuracy though. I made up a solid steel cartridge on the end of a push rod and used that to push the slug into the rifling. One problem that I ran into was that if you put a soft compressible wad between the powder and the slug, you will get a case separation about the middle of the case. My interpretation is that the powder grips the case and drags it forward if the bullet is not there to give some inertia and allow the main mass of the powder to start burning and crumbling.
These separations by the way are very different from the ones you get from excessive headspace and occur about 1/2 way up the shell

cheers mooncoon
 
I breech seat soft cast lead bullets for my .32/40, it is an orig. '85 action and stock with a Douglas 1-14" bl., I use a few dif. 200+ gr. bullets with both smokeless and black powder loads. When breech seating and using Black Powder I have to swab bore/chamber area after each shot. I made up my breech seater using a similar leverage principal as a reloading press, and a drilled out dummy case. I have made simpler ones that don't use leverage and they work well. Pope and other early shooters were not quick to switch from loading from the muzzle to the breech, and never did take to using fixed ammo for serious target work. Today, target shooters in CBA competitions, turn in some very small grps. breech seating, most favoring the .32 Miller Short Cartridge.
 
What seems to be an avarage caliber?I thought of trying 45-70,but I have read that 38-55 or 32-40 to be the "norm".I even have gone as for to make it caseless,sort of.

I would seat the bullet to a specified depth...then I would use paper rolled onto a cut down case..The case end would seal the chamber and ignite the powder(black powder only).The thing that I an trying to accomplish is allowing myself to have any 45cal cartriage without cutting a chamber(except for the sealing end,which in this case would be a 45-70 brass cut down to 1 inch length.).By doing this I can have a 45-110,45-70,45-90 ect..

so to have a 45-110 I would breech seat to a length to take the powder ( black powder)..I doesnt matter if your igniting area is rifled...it all has to be cleaned for the next shot..

Does this make sence....or should I go back and sniff my glue bottle:D
 
oops said:
What seems to be an avarage caliber?I thought of trying 45-70,but I have read that 38-55 or 32-40 to be the "norm".I even have gone as for to make it caseless,sort of.

I would seat the bullet to a specified depth...then I would use paper rolled onto a cut down case..The case end would seal the chamber and ignite the powder(black powder only).The thing that I an trying to accomplish is allowing myself to have any 45cal cartriage without cutting a chamber(except for the sealing end,which in this case would be a 45-70 brass cut down to 1 inch length.).By doing this I can have a 45-110,45-70,45-90 ect..

so to have a 45-110 I would breech seat to a length to take the powder ( black powder)..I doesnt matter if your igniting area is rifled...it all has to be cleaned for the next shot..

Does this make sence....or should I go back and sniff my glue bottle:D
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Interesting concept. I've never tried this but you have me thinking....:)
 
oops said:
What seems to be an avarage caliber?
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Average caliber for what? Breech seating? Start from about .25 caliber on up.

Guys with original Stevens target guns, chambered in calibers that are almost impossible to get cases for, like 25-25 Stevens, will shoot entire seasons on the same single case, either by using a breech seater, or a case filler of the appropriate length (wood dowel, brass rod). No reason that rolled paper would not work, but it would probably not be very durable in the long run.
Deprime the case, reprime, throw a powder charge, seat a bullet, insert case with powder, take rifle off rack, aim, shoot, repeat.

Some actions, like the Stevens 44 , and the Ballard single shots, had a strong camming action, and could be used to seat the 'pusher' case. others, like the Remington Hepburns and Winchester 1885's had a little less (or none) but were handy to fit with a lever action seater.

There are a couple books out there on the subject of Scheutzen or Stutzen shooting, that cover the matter really well, and a fair bit of info online.

Some current cartridges used for the discipline are pretty much a breech seat only affair, having no real neck to hold a bullet in. IIRC the Miller short and long cartridges are of that bunch.

If you really want to get a headache start reading through the writings of the shooters from the turn of the last century, over the relative merits of breech seating vs. false muzzle muzzle loading for target work. Then start reading about the merits of black, smokeless, or duplex loads (some smokeless, rest black, in the case), and the relative merits of various other minor details...

Cheers
Trev
 
Always looked at it like I look at paper patching. It might work well but for the amount of work and trouble that it would take there are a lot of other things that I could try first.

More actual trigger time would probably give me the best improvements.
 
For now my mind seems to be just spinning on just breech seating and only using black powder.This is why I want to get info on the swedish rolling blocks,they seem to be the low cost alternitive for my "plans".I do not expect this project to be an easy shot,I understand that there are alot of steps and is very manual to reload....but isn't that half the fun(in my mind).I do have a stevens 44...but at this time I do not feel line bubb'in it....I have sort of turned my shooting intrest in this way cause I am getting so tired of having one rifle ,one caliber.I want to persue mt 45-70 project,but 45-110 intrests me also.I guess I am trying to have my cake and eat it to.So I hope with some research,input from "the people" and some time ,I can put this idea together and see If it can really work...So far there is no reason why it can't!!


As for the reading...POPE and his barrel designs are awsome
 
The .45 cals. are not very good candidates regardless if you use smokeless or Black Powder, you would have trouble making up for the large powder capacity, and having to use fillers and wads to make up for unwanted powder capacity. Fouling would be a problem if you used a case completely full as well as increased recoil. .32 to .38 seem to be the best candidates, remembering that the case has to be filled right to the mouth in the case of BP.
 
ben hunchak said:
The .45 cals. are not very good candidates regardless if you use smokeless or Black Powder, you would have trouble making up for the large powder capacity, and having to use fillers and wads to make up for unwanted powder capacity. Fouling would be a problem if you used a case completely full as well as increased recoil. .32 to .38 seem to be the best candidates, remembering that the case has to be filled right to the mouth in the case of BP.
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This is why I want to breech seat a bullet and then use rolled paper around a case end with my powder charge.The only chambering is for the case end(about an inch from a 45-70 case) the rest is paper...this way I can adjust my bullet depth to the powder charge....and I can vary my charge with out the restrictions of a case and still maintain a compressed charge of black powder in the "chamber".I guess you can use a duplex load for larger BP charges..but on the bottom line you can reload for ANY combination of loads,hot or not!!

But mabey I should try a smaller caliber(38 cal)...walk before I run,It is that I like BIG heavy bullets..
 
I have a friend who has breech seated his .57 Snider bullets for years. He then loads his case with a set amount of BP and fills the case to the mouth with kapok. There are those who will tell you that if the BP is not up to the base of the bullet you may "ring" the chamber. He just uses a tool he made to shove the bullet into the rifling from the Breech end and always has an air space between cartridge and the base of the bullet. One benefit is that he can use the same piece of brass at the bench all day just repriming and then filling...and, his brass lasts forever as it is never resized or worked. By the way...his rifle does not have a ring at the chamber and he shoots very well.
 
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opps, I see what you are trying to accomplish and for serious, non-timed target shooting there is probably no reason that it wouldn't work. I'm not too sure how the paper half of your cartridges would be for compressed powder or digging back out of the chamber. You could use nitrated paper maybe...

Personally I would find a compromise cartridge like the 45-90. You can vary the load a considerable amount by seating the bullet further in or out, different grades of powder, different compression, drop-tubing or not... I've loaded 45-70 with as little as 45gr and heard of people forcing in as much as 75gr or more.
 
vagrantviking said:
You can vary the load a considerable amount by seating the bullet further in or out,.
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It has been my experience that if the bullet is much short of the rifling, you will lose accuracy. You need to establish the maximum length and if necessary use a filler like corn meal between the powder and the compressed powder charge

I also think that the reason the snider does not have appear to have problems with the loose compressible filler is that it is quite a low pressure load. I have little doubt that you would run into problems if you did that with something like a 45-70 or longer and I know from experience that you will have problems in a 38-56 and a 32-40.

cheers mooncoon
 
I have found that having an orientation mark on the mold and ensuring that each cast bullet (in 45/70) is oriented to the bore in the same way will drop group sizes - far more so than breech seating.
 
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