Anyone know the rationale behind IPSC (and IDPA for that matter) setting the minimum power thresholds for ammo so low? This is especially true for 9mm and .45. I mean, you can make minimum in 9mm and major in .45 with weights and velocities that produce significantly less than 300 fpe at the muzzle. Try to find any commercial loads for those calibres that are that anemic, they just don't exist. That being the case, it seems kinda odd that the thresholds are so low in two shooting sports that purport to be "practical" and "defensive". If you could carry would you load sub 300fpe mouse loads?
Why Power Factors So Low?
- Thread starter phil99
- Start date
As my paper targets rarely shoot back, but guns can and do break, I can live with the 125pf in minor, and take comfort in knowing that no zombie is any less dead now that the major PF is 170 instead of 175.
My only regret is with the loss of the metric target, my Mozambique skills are waning.
My only regret is with the loss of the metric target, my Mozambique skills are waning.
phil, factory ammo PF, american eagle with foot pounds energy.....
115gr 9mm @ 1180 fps = 138pf 356fpe
124gr 9mm @ 1150 fps = 142pf 364fpe
147gr 9mm @ 1000 fps = 147pf 326fpe
155gr .40S&W @ 1160 fps = 180pf 463fpe
165gr .40S&W @ 1130 fps = 186pf 468fpe
180gr .40S&W @ 1000 fps = 180pf 400fpe
230gr 45 Auto @ 890 fps = 205pf 404fpe
185gr 45 Auto @ 950 fps = 176pf 371fpe
I think what your forgetting and especially with IDPA is that it is a sport.... you the competitor have the choice to shoot whatever caliber or power factor you would like too. from full load 10mm in either a semi auto or revolver to full load 45 colt in a 625.....
YOU have the chice to bring to the sport that which you feel will work for you, a lot of people shoot 38's for practice and then full load 357 for defense.... why can the same not bedone for sport, the purpose os to get you out shooting, not get you out flinching becuase your shooting 500 rnds in a day and full power loads will get to you.
I shoot factory, so the PF's listed above are what I am shooting...
and the question "if i could carry would I carry sub 300 fpe".... hell yeah because I would be packing a chiefs special loaded with 158gr 38 specials... or maybe some 125gr "exotic" load.... both of which fall under 300 fpe.
115gr 9mm @ 1180 fps = 138pf 356fpe
124gr 9mm @ 1150 fps = 142pf 364fpe
147gr 9mm @ 1000 fps = 147pf 326fpe
155gr .40S&W @ 1160 fps = 180pf 463fpe
165gr .40S&W @ 1130 fps = 186pf 468fpe
180gr .40S&W @ 1000 fps = 180pf 400fpe
230gr 45 Auto @ 890 fps = 205pf 404fpe
185gr 45 Auto @ 950 fps = 176pf 371fpe
I think what your forgetting and especially with IDPA is that it is a sport.... you the competitor have the choice to shoot whatever caliber or power factor you would like too. from full load 10mm in either a semi auto or revolver to full load 45 colt in a 625.....
YOU have the chice to bring to the sport that which you feel will work for you, a lot of people shoot 38's for practice and then full load 357 for defense.... why can the same not bedone for sport, the purpose os to get you out shooting, not get you out flinching becuase your shooting 500 rnds in a day and full power loads will get to you.
I shoot factory, so the PF's listed above are what I am shooting...
and the question "if i could carry would I carry sub 300 fpe".... hell yeah because I would be packing a chiefs special loaded with 158gr 38 specials... or maybe some 125gr "exotic" load.... both of which fall under 300 fpe.
we have metric targets in our comp in quebec, lots of them
In what sport?
Just for arguments sake I went and looked up 38 special
125gr JHP 38 Special @ 830fps = 104pf 191fpe
158gr RN Lead 38 Special @ 770fps = 121pf 208fpe
a lot of LEO and Civilian CCW carry and use snub nose guns with 38 special.... and they seem happy
125gr JHP 38 Special @ 830fps = 104pf 191fpe
158gr RN Lead 38 Special @ 770fps = 121pf 208fpe
a lot of LEO and Civilian CCW carry and use snub nose guns with 38 special.... and they seem happy
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
The logic behind this is really quite simple really.
In some sad places it is illegal to reload ammo.
Thus they MUST use factory ammo.
As such it is vital for our sport to grow that people be able to make Major and minor with the use of factory ammo.
In some sad places it is illegal to reload ammo.
Thus they MUST use factory ammo.
As such it is vital for our sport to grow that people be able to make Major and minor with the use of factory ammo.
Fair enough, this is all about numbers. So correct me if I'm wrong but in IPSC Production, for example, you need to acheive at least a 125 power factor. So, if I use a 124gr bullet I need to push it at at least 1009fps (125x1009/1000). Well, if you throw that weight and that speed into any ballistic energy calculator you will get 280fpe. There may be some obscure commercial loads I'm overlooking but I don't know of any with less than 320fpe (Winchester USA 124gr). On average I have found 9mm loads to run around 350fpe and some hot hollowpoints are exceeding 400fpe.
If you need a .45ACP example, to make major in Standard you need to push a 230gr bullent at at least 740fps for 170pf. Those numbers again give you 280fpe at the muzzle - pretty sad for .45 which also tends to average in the 350-400fpe range commercially.
hey phil... get over it and shoot the sport with what you want to shoot it with, why are you worried about what other people are shooting as long as they are legal for the sports directives re: power factor.
why not load up some 200gr 10mm auto @ 1200fps so you can duplicate the original load.... or load 45Auto with gunners recipies and push a 230gr slug at 1150fps....
you can do it, no one is going to stop you.... it is a sport and you can shoot any load you like as long as the gun fits in the box.
why not load up some 200gr 10mm auto @ 1200fps so you can duplicate the original load.... or load 45Auto with gunners recipies and push a 230gr slug at 1150fps....
you can do it, no one is going to stop you.... it is a sport and you can shoot any load you like as long as the gun fits in the box.
Ok, and your paper targets are impressedor saddened by the velocity difference?
Chairborne Rangers and Internet Ninjas can bust numbers all day long. The truth is the only danger is that the guys who shoot competitions for competitions sake might fall on the chrony sword. Most of us respect a health margin of error and load around 130 and 175 respectively. The guys that carry for a living and shoot in competiton can chime in here, but most seem to treat this as more game than anything else, and shoot what ever ammo is appropriate.
Actually, I've got my provisional black badge but just haven't had a chance to shoot my first match yet. Don't get me wrong, the sport looks great and I like most of what I've seen so far. It's just that considering that 9/40/45 are the most common pistol calibres used in the sport and in real life, it just seems logical to me that they would try to bring the power factors more in-line to commercial reality. I'm new to IPSC but I already know that the top guys (and not so top guys) are mostly all handloading as low as they possibly can to gain advantage. I guess that's fine because those are the rules so why put yourself at a disadvantage, but it's almost like you're not shooting that calibre of gun anymore. I guess it comes down to your perspective on the sport is or should be.
see that is where yourfailing phil, as a new shooter why shoud you be worrying what the sport "should" be.... there are many more experienced people then yourself that have decided what the sport WILL be.....
shoot some matches, have some fun and shoot full power ammo if you want, the main idea is not to get hung up on the politics before you understand the sport.... get out and shoot, put some rounds down range and learn how to use your gun the way jebus and gaston glock intended you to use it.
No, reloading is not required to be competitive. Yes, many of the top shooters shoot factory ammo.
Ammo and power factor has very little to do with being competitive for the top shooters, and in my opinion, also has very little to do with being competitive for the not so top shooters. You still have to line the sights up on the target, you still have to manage trigger control, you still have to have a good grip, you still have to know how to move, you still have to know how to transition between targets, etc. etc. Yes, a lower power factor can help a person manage recoil, but if you don't do everything else right it's a moot point.
I've watched some of the top local shooters here in Alberta with both low power factor production guns to major power factor standard guns, and there is little to no difference in how they shoot. If you're good you're good. Take it a step further to the truly top shooters, and no matter what you put in their hands they are still a top shooter.
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One of my buddies used to shoot his 10mm in Prod. You should have seen the muzzle flash on that thing
OK...I change my answer...
maybe you should do a bit less math
and a bit more 
and maybe a bit of 
afterwards
