My bad experience with Bergers

brenden270

brenden270

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I tried some 155 grain vld's out of my rem LTR this summer and they were extremely accurate with Varget and Nosler custom brass (2800 fps). I took them out for whitetails in November and this is what happened. I was hunting out of my ground blind when a nice whitey came by about 20 yards away. I put the first shot absolutely perfect through the lungs and the buck ran off. No problem. I could see blood on the entry shoulder so I let him run down the cutline a bit. I watched as he made it to about 80 yards away and was fully expecting him to drop at any second. He just stood there breathing hard. I was in my blind and only had a texas heart shot so I didn't shoot again and didn't climb out of my blind for fear of spooking him off. I knew he was a gonner but he wasn't going down???? So after about two minutes he shuffled off into some tall grass and disappeared. Awesome...he's done. I get out of the blind and walked over to where he was and there he is standing 10 feet from me in the tall grass breathing hard with blood coming out of mouth and chest. I put another one about an inch from the first and he bolts. WTF?? I watch as he runs tail down for about 100 yards and as he turns to run into the jungle of willows I hit him on an angle through the shoulders again. He stumbles and runs into the thick stuff and vanishes. So I'm standing there scratching my head?? I've killed over a dozen deer with the 308 and 150 grain bullets and they are almost always dead right there.....never any runaways. I've used accubonds, sivertips, sst's, barnes and ballistic tips and have never had any complaints with any of them. So I make my way over to him and sure enough he is still alive in the trees. I shoot him in the neck and he dies. Hmmm? I start gutting him only to find shrapnel everywhere and only minimal damage. I actaully found the base,and only the disc of the base in the heart. Very puzzling. My conclusion was that they were waaay overexpanding similiar to a varmint bullet. I know this is what they are supposed to do but i was very dissapointed in the lethality of these bullets. I know this is hardly a conclusive test but I will not chance that ever happeneing again. Back to noslers. Here's the details of the scenario

Shot#1) 20 yards perfect lung one inch behind the shoulder
Shot #2) 5 yards perfect lung three inches behind the shoulder
Shot #3) Lung and shoulder 100 yards.
Shot #4) Neck 5 yards.
Time elapsed between first and last shot approx five minutes.
155 grain berger VLD (the hunting version) 2800 fps muzzle velocity.

I won't use these things again for anything but paper targets and steel gongs.....which they are the absolute best for.

Brenden
 
Did any of these shot go through or exit? How much lung damage was done? Was the chest cavity filled with blood when you opened the deer?
 
You aren't the first to report issues with Bergers but I also know some people that have killed some pretty serious game with them. That is an awfully close shot to expect much more than a pass through with any premium hunting bullet. Most of the good reports I've heard have been at 100 yards or more.
 
$8 in in premium bullets where launched at that critter. Sound's like the only thing "premium" about them was the price. I'll stick to my good ol' Hornady's.
 
Sorry guys, one of the bullets (or a fragment of it) passed through but the other two penetrated about 8-10 inches with a wound channel about four inches wide. The exit hole was iny. Good blood in the chest cavity...about what you would see from any other SINGLE bullet. No photos... sorry guys...wasn't proud enough of the situation to take pics...
 
Berger states right in their literature that their hunting bullets are designed for "explosive expansion causing massive tissue damage" which isn't my criteria for a big game bullet. I'll continue to shoot 200gr Nosler Partitions:eek: in my 300WM because they have always worked for me. Shoot a deer 5 times?? I'd be pissed too.
 
Cummins4x4 said:
Berger states right in their literature that their hunting bullets are designed for "explosive expansion causing massive tissue damage" which isn't my criteria for a big game bullet. I'll continue to shoot 200gr Nosler Partitions:eek: in my 300WM because they have always worked for me. Shoot a deer 5 times?? I'd be pissed too.
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Good Point! Best Point!
 
Ive shot only a few Bergers at paper with good results, but Ive hesitated to try them on game. This story just doesn't build my confidence in them for use on game!
 
It just shows the kind of BS that the TV shows and magazines put out about, these expensive and unnecessary bullets. I had similar results once with Nozzler Partitions, three chest hits on a sheep, and it took off running, I found him, but he went alot further then i would have thought, I was using a .300 Weatherby and 180 gr. bullets, all were pass throughs.
I talked to a Nosler service rep. and he said the front half will blow up and the rear half will act like a solid and penetrate deep. So in other words, i was left with a 90 gr. solid to down that ram.I don't use those types of guns or bullets anymore, and have never had a repeat. A 500 gr. bullet whether it expands or not, in a .45 cal. or .50 cal. trumps a 90 gr. solid every time!
 
An explosive bullet with low sectional density is always a recipe for disaster. There simply is no bullet left after the initial explosion and that is the end of penetration.


Take the same bullet, add enough length to the back of it so there is something left after the inital explosion, drive it to the same velocity and you have a wicked deer bullet.
 
ben hunchak said:
It just shows the kind of BS that the TV shows and magazines put out about, these expensive and unnecessary bullets. I had similar results once with Nozzler Partitions, three chest hits on a sheep, and it took off running, I found him, but he went alot further then i would have thought, I was using a .300 Weatherby and 180 gr. bullets, all were pass throughs.
I talked to a Nosler service rep. and he said the front half will blow up and the rear half will act like a solid and penetrate deep. So in other words, i was left with a 90 gr. solid to down that ram.I don't use those types of guns or bullets anymore, and have never had a repeat. A 500 gr. bullet whether it expands or not, in a .45 cal. or .50 cal. trumps a 90 gr. solid every time!
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I have to agree with that statement Ben....
 
303carbine said:
I have to agree with that statement Ben....
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As long as you are shooting inside 150 yards. Not saying the bullet can't do it past there but the trajectory and sights certainly limit those bullet sizes to closer ranges. High BC bullets like the Berger are designed for long-range shooting.
 
Good points guys. I really was skeptical about the construction of the bullets to begin with but I bought right into the hype with all there one shot kill reports. What attracted me most was, of course, the accuracy. That load shot .5 inch five shot groups through my semi custom LTR. Not the kind of accuracy neccesary to kill deer but nice just the same. I have a 150 ballistic tip load that shoots that good SOMETIMES so thats what I'll use next year. I have used berger bullets in .223, .264, 243, .308 and .284 with excellent accuracy results and I will continue to use them for target and varmint work. I have some 80's ready for my 6mm when my 87 v-max supply runs out. I won't, however, use them for big game again.


(303carbine: BTW that was a long way from as fast as I can drive them and that load, (like all my loads) WAS loaded for accuracy.)

Brenden
 
From what I've seen over the years , a Whitetail is tougher and harder to knock down than a Moose.
I don't reload , so I'm oblivious to the tech stuff of it all , but why not go into a heavier grain pill ( ie; 180gr) ?
 
I've got a box of 210 Bergers that I'll be loading up for my 300 WM. I've also got 200 SMKs and 208 A Max that I'll try as well. I know experienced and knowledgeable shooters and hunters that use all three of these bullets on game out of the 300 WM.

An example of one is just that. One instance and satistically insignificant.

As for "absolutely perfect through the lungs", what exactly does that mean? I see you say 1" behind the shoulder, however I find that difficult to believe as more of the "shrapnel" than just the bullet base would have gotten the heart. Not accusing you of being a liar, but without photos I have to be somewhat skeptical, particularly when the whole experience isn't reported until nearly 2 months after the deer season in BC ends.

One highly credible writers have used the Berger (despite having reservations about it) and had success backed up by photos. Now, I'm sure someone will chime in with the old song about how writers are bought and paid for and beholden to the companies and all that rubbish. That doesn't float either. If the Berger was in inadequate hunting bullet, people would be screaming their heads off over at places like longrangehunting.com or 24hourcampfire.com. Fact is that they aren't, which also leads me to believe that your experience, while unfortunate, is not definitive. Certainly not definitive enough that I won't use the Berger on game.

Not trying to pick a fight, just pitching my 2 cents into the pot.
 
just wanted to direct my reply to 303carbine. If the most accurate load for a gun happens to be the fastest shooting you would recommend going to a different powder that might not be as accurate? If you open a reloading manual you will find that this is the case sometimes..
 
well not to be a guesser I would say you were the problem with the hunt and NOT the bullet, if you cought up to it and it was bleeding from the chest and mouth and breathing heavy it was DIEING you pushed it and made it run more and 8-10" deep and 4" wide on a deer? how wide was this deer? how much bigger of a hole would you like besides a rocket launcher hole?


now edited to add I have only seen a few animal die(snide remark) but any with a bullet or even a peice of bulet in the heart usualy die now not later and definetly not 100 yards of you walking to it later IMHO
 
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