My bad experience with Bergers

brenden270 said:
Good points guys. I really was skeptical about the construction of the bullets to begin with but I bought right into the hype with all there one shot kill reports. What attracted me most was, of course, the accuracy. That load shot .5 inch five shot groups through my semi custom LTR. Not the kind of accuracy neccesary to kill deer but nice just the same. I have a 150 ballistic tip load that shoots that good SOMETIMES so thats what I'll use next year. I have used berger bullets in .223, .264, 243, .308 and .284 with excellent accuracy results and I will continue to use them for target and varmint work. I have some 80's ready for my 6mm when my 87 v-max supply runs out. I won't, however, use them for big game again.


(303carbine: BTW that was a long way from as fast as I can drive them and that load, (like all my loads) WAS loaded for accuracy.)

Brenden
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Then the bullets are crap for in close shooting. Over the years I have tried many different bullets and find that a heavy soft point bullet will get the job done close in or at long range.I also use Barnes and Nosler Partition's with good luck,I usually try and match the bullet to the game size intended and distance to target.I have also found that bullet of any given weight tends to penetrate deeper when driven a bit slower. I would rather use a 35 caliber with heavy bullets than a Weatherby magnum for any deer or moose hunting.
 
brenden270 said:
Sorry guys, one of the bullets (or a fragment of it) passed through but the other two penetrated about 8-10 inches with a wound channel about four inches wide. The exit hole was iny. Good blood in the chest cavity...about what you would see from any other SINGLE bullet. No photos... sorry guys...wasn't proud enough of the situation to take pics...
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If as you say in your first post that the deer was hit in the lungs, the wound as you described would have displaced about 100 cubic inches of tissue mosty lung tissue. Lots of damage and an exit hole? Sounds like the bullet can not be faulted or could have done more to cause death?
 
I'm not knocking berger bullets but I personally believe Bergers are much better at sticking with the target rifle game. Its hard to beat companies like Nosler and Barnes who have a solid reputation of producing very good big game bullets like the TSX, partition, and Accubond.
 
I will conclude that the bullet is not guilty til proven guilty, even though I would have chosen a different bullet.
 
I'm in no hurry to try BErgers out in the field. I am sure they will work fine on deer size critters at medium to long range, but TSX bullets are accurate enough and work good on everything from 0-500 yards, and I am not going to shoot further than that anyway.....Never shot past 400 on game, and I dont' intend on getting into the ultra long range whitetail hunting game anytime soon, anyway...
 
I think anytime you have to use the statement "Oh it's a great bullet, but only if used within these ranges...", you are just asking for trouble. In my opinion a bullet should work all the time, at any range, under any circumstance. If it doesn't, then I wouldn't be using it. Sounds like Bergers fit into this ill repute.
 
well Bergers does have a hotline to call and talk to a tech and from what was described in this story is what is expected of there bullets, 2-4" pnetration before fragmentation and then come unglued leaving gaping wound chanels, before chritisizing something maybe we should learn its intended purpose which in this case was clearly what it was.
good/bad or ugly it is what it is there not forcing anyone to buy them nor hunt with them and they do have there own specific loading advice for there bullets
 
There are good and bad reports for all bullets. Just look at all of the hoopla that surrounds the TSX... I have killed a few critters with the .284 140 grain TSX with great results, but others hate'em?

I have never hunted Big Game with Bergers but plan to this coming season. I won't let one negative report make the decision for me. Actually this is the first negative report I have read on Bergers for hunting.

I have talked to Walt Berger and Eric Stecker about their bullets- they are both stand-up guys that offer great customer service and product knowledge. I would phone them and tell them your story and see what they have to say.
 
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Oooh! Looks like I touched a cord with a few fellas. Let's get one thing straight. The deer died. So the bullets didn't fail. The deer would have EVENTUALLY died from the initial shot. If the initial shot would have been made with a ballistic tip or a partition, the deer would have died sooner. I firmly believe that, I've shot 20+ deer with them. The bullets DID do exactly what Walt and Eric advertise but DID NOT have the effect so commonly seen in the "Beyond Belief" clips. All three shots were lethal and not at an unreasonable velocity. The wound channel estimations were exactly that...estimations. Anybody who has gutted a few deer knows it's not exactly the "bullet test tube" when you get in there. As for how many CC'd of dispalcement??? Sorry didn't have my team of necropsy experts there at the time. Those instant death long shots advertised are caused by disruption of the central nervous system due to a "high shoulder" shot preached by the long range movie guys. Almost any bullet will do that. As for the story not being true bacause it was reported "two months" after hunting season???? I've only been a member of gunnutz for three weeks??? Anyway guys.. next time you hear "They won't walk away from a Berger", just remember.... mine did....three times.

Brenden
 
The "beyond belief" clips are invariably high shoulder shots, which are really neck shots. And if the bullets were as frangible as you'd like us to believe then they would likely not work worth a damn on shots requiring bones to be broken.

As for bullets that should work all the time, I work with a guy that shoots a 300 RUM. He tried 150 gr Scirrocos with terrible results. The bullet fragmented horribly, but that shouldn't be a surprise. At the other end of the spectrum, 286 gr Barnes TSX out of my 9.3x62 won't expand worth a damn at 2200 FPS, and certainly not at whatever the retained velocity at 200 yards is but the 286 Normas that I shoot now should be perfect at the velocities I'll drive them at. Too tough a bullet. All bullets have a wheelhouse where they perform best. Too fast and they shatter or too slow and they don't expand.

And last time I checked, November 2008 was more than 3 weeks ago, no matter how you slice it.
 
Wow it has been since Nov. Time flies... anyway that is irrelevant. Good point on the "wheelhouse" theory. I believe bergers are best at lower velocities way out there.
 
Check out some of the videos from the "Best of the west" guys!!! REALLY long shoots on elk and griz, and all one shot kills!!!
I guess it's all about where you place it!! I myself shoot triple shocks and lite mag interbonds(270), and have never needed a follow up shot!

-madcarpenter:)
 
Well I tried out the Bergers this year, and the Tipped Triple Shock, both new to me this year. I thought that I would have the VLD in the pipe and a stack of Triple Shocks under just in case I needed something with some real penetrating power.
I shot a big whitetail at 486 yards with the Berger, hit him in the spine, and he was dead before he hit the ground. When we opened him up, there was just a pin hole on the entrance which is what they said, but the damage it did was amazing to say the least. Parts of the bullet past through under the spine on the exit side, with a couple small holes. Inside was the real damage though, there was a whole that I could put my fist through without touchin the sides! It did it's job, but as would any other bullet through the spine. I was shooting a 168 gr VLD out of my 308 Norma Mag at 3200 fps. That was the only round fired at a deer. I was hoping to see what it did through the lungs at a shorter range but didn't get a chance.
I will continue to use them, but I'm gonna keep the Barnes loaded in the mag! Just in case. I was lucky enough to have them shoot within 1/2" @ 100 so I'm not worried about the slight difference for in the field if need be.
 
Bergers might be a lot of things but they are not a good game bullet. They might work reasonably well if muzzle velocities are down around the 2300 fps mark but really, they are a good match bullet. That is, they are a good match bullet as long as they are not driven too fast. Too fast and they occasionally come apart before they reach the target. This was a problem we saw at 1000 yard BR matches where some were shooting big cartridges and driving them to over 3200fps. Apparently, Berger is now making some bullets with heavier jackets. Still not a great game bullet. Sierras (gamekings) are better and many don't rate them too highly.
Barnes makes great game bullets. At 308 velocities, conventional bullets from Hornady, Speer, Sierra, and a host of others work great. Bergers are great if you want reliably put a hole in a predetermined spot on a piece of paper but not a real game bullet.
Brendan,
How would you like to have a magazine full of those when you are staring that grizzly in the face!? It can happen around here, as you know. Regards, Bill.
 
Thanks for the input Bill. Good to have the voice of experience backing a guy up. As for the grizzlies....... that's what that big ugly cannon I dropped off at your shop is for.... and you're right.... it will never see a Berger.

Brenden
 
I used Bergers this past fall in my .270 WSM. I decided on the 140 gr VLD over H4831, win brass, win primers.

Shot 3 deer, first was a smaller 4 point buck, he was already injured (hunting partner shot the bottom part of his rear leg off....don't ask me how???), first shot was a through and through as he was within 80 yards, perfect double lung. I could see a steady stream of blood flowing out of the offside as he turned to run uphill. He made it to about 110 yards, perfect broadside shot, so I placed the second pill high on the facing shoulder....he dropped dead and rolled about 25 yards downhill. Chest cavity was absolutely full of clotted blood and the facing shoulder absolutely smashed to peices!

Second was a yearling doe, she was hit at about 430 yards broadside, perfect double lung/liver shot, she ran about 60-80 yards and fell down dead.

Third was a HUGE doe at about 35 yards, perfect broadside shot entering high on her right shoulder, she fell through the fence she was standing in front of and dropped dead within 30 yards!

As you can tell from my accounts, they worked more than fine for me out of my .270 WSM. I can't wait till this fall as I am going after more white tails and maybe even a moose with my VLD'S!

The VLD's are constructed for longer range shots so often will not drop an animal dead in it's tracks if you are shooting them within 80 or so yards, unless you have them loaded down close to a min vel, which would help on expansion for closer range shooting. If you anticipate closer shots, maybe shooting long range bullets isn't the best choice afterall.
 
Leeper said:
Too fast and they occasionally come apart before they reach the target. This was a problem we saw at 1000 yard BR matches where some were shooting big cartridges and driving them to over 3200fps. Apparently, Berger is now making some bullets with heavier jackets.


So at what distances were these bullets fragmenting? Because I have shot a lot from short ranges, out to 500 and never seen a problem with this! If they were going to have any problems it would be in the first couple hundred yards at the highest velocity> so please let me know as I'm very curious!
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We killed only a handful of critters with the 155 Berger this fall but it included black bear, mule deer buck and bighorn ram. None were very far the bear and ram were about 80yards and the buck 250+. All died just fine, what does that tell me? Everybodies mileage varies.
 
1moose,1elk for me with bergvld 140gr at 3100fps out of my custom 264win mag.moose was 75yard pass through went 50yards,elk was 425yard went 100yard or less was under hide on far side both did massive damage inside.
 
Some times they just don't want to fall over. I was hunting with a friend. from two bee huts about 50 yards apart in an uncut alfalfa field. A small spiker buck comes out and my buddy shoots. He's running a 270 with barns tripple shocks. He pulled the shot, and gut shot the deer. The deer just stands there. He hits it again, double lung. It walks in front of my hut, and I hit him with a 308 running Silver Tip Premium ammo, two in the boiler. He WALKS into the bush. We give him a few minutes, and slowly walk in. This poor thing is leaving a trail of pieces, and he still went over 100 yards into the bush. When we gutted him the damage was absolutely amazing. All shots were thru and thru, lungs and heart were mush. Don't know what to say, first time it's ever happened to me. In hind sight, I should have broke him down thru the shoulders, but good God this wasn't a big buck.
 
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