Cowboy guns (open top and pre 1894 winchesters)

H Wally

H Wally

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I posted this later on in the thread, but for clarity I'll put it here too, as there seems to be some confusion.
I should probably rephrase for clarity - these guns aren't intended for cowboy action shooting. They're more intended as fun and cool looking representatives of that time frame. If I feel so inclined, the lever could be for hunting too, hence the larger caliber preference.

I don't have a preference for any one caliber other than to say that if both my pistol and lever rifle were chambered in the same caliber it would make life easier. If not, well, I've only ever owned milsurps so I don't have much of a clue about what's common and what's not in other calibers. I'm open to suggestions of course.
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Hi again everyone. Since Christmas, when I was exposed to the beauty and grace of an uberti peacemaker lookalike chambered in 45 long colt, I've been thinking a lot about getting into some "cowboy" guns. I don't have the price range to go original, so most likely I'll be going for a remake, and probably second hand.

First off - after reading through the threads, I get a lot of mixed opinions about the Uberti open top revolvers. Seems there is mostly unsubstantiated wariness of it, excepting the mention of a slightly undersized firing pin that can pierce primers. How do people feel about these guns in 45 long colt?
What price is reasonable to pay for a healthy used one?





Secondly - I have always liked levers, but never considered buying one until now. I've decided that I like winchesters the most, with the exception of the 1894 and 1895. The big calibers, like 45-70 especially interest me, but 45 long colt is also a definite option, as I'll almost certainly end up with a revolver chambered in that. As I reload, ammo shouldn't be a problem.

What I'm curious about is: For the various models, calibers, barrel lengths etc, there seems to be a massive fluctuation in price. From this I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what's a good price for a used lever action.

If anyone has an opinion as to which of the pre-1894 levers are best, what caliber would be best or to avoid, or what price for a used repro would be reasonable for any model, I'd be happy to hear about it.
 
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H Wally said:
Secondly - I have always liked levers, but never considered buying one until now. I've decided that I like winchesters the most, with the exception of the 1894 and 1895.
If anyone has an opinion as to which of the pre-1894 levers are best, what caliber would be best or to avoid, or what price for a used repro would be reasonable for any model, I'd be happy to hear about it.
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If price is an issue then I would suggest that marlin rifles tend to be cheaper than winchesters. If you are shooting black powder the marlin also has the advantage of being very easy to strip for cleaning. I would not consider stripping a winchester unless absolutely necessary.
Your criteria of price and model of winchester somewhat limit you to a model 92 in winchester and for originals 44-40 is the most common caliber. You might want to think in terms of a 44-40 replica revolver rather than 45 colt for that reason.

cheers mooncoon
 
I guess I should have clarified - would any of the above levers be available for $600-$700? I meant to say I didn't want to go over $800 on a single rifle. I also probably wouldn't be doing black powder, as at the moment I don't have the time to deal with it.

I don't really mind what it's chambered in as long as the ammo is available and not $3 a shot or something rediculous. As I'm a milsurp guy the only two calibers I recognized and have seen in stores were 45/70 and 45 long colt, so I assumed they were pretty common.

I went through the uberti site and found that very few of their revolvers are chambered in that, instead the 45 LC and .357 Mag seems the predominant chambering.




I guess I should ask too - how do those chamber inserts to convert the colt navies from cap and ball to cartridge work?
( http://oldwestguns.ca/products/category.php?id_category=79 )
If I understand it right - the cap and ball cylinders are much longer than 45 lc cylinders and therefore can afford the space required by the kirst ring.

It seems to me that I could buy the above cartridge converter, and combine it with one of these guys: http://www.marstar.ca/gf-pietta/Pietta-1851-Navy-steel.shtm
And have exactly what I'm looking for, for the same price as the new open top cartridge uberti's (of course without the import fee on uberties, or the cartridge plunger to remove them if stuck).

I'm thinking out loud here, so feel free to correct me if I've written something stupid.
 
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For the lever, if you're thinking a Winchester design, 45 Colt, in the $6-700 range, you'd have to go with a Puma 1892 or luck into a used Uberti 1866 or 1873. While the '73 or '66 would be smoother because of the toggle link action, the 92 is stronger.
You could get a Marlin 1894 for that price. I have one of their 1894 Cowboys with a 20" octagonal barrel and it's a great little gun - smooth, accurate, and strong enough to handle hunting loads. The octagonal barrel adds a little weight, but that doesn't bother me.
 
I gota 1894 Winchester 38 55 SASK Diamond jubliee gun in the orignal box
The guns a Beauty and minty in every aspect.
I should sell the gun i never use it.
Everytime i get it out and start to stroke it tho it goes back in the Safe :D









.
 
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P.S. - if one put a kirst conversion cylinder on a open top pietta blackpowder cap and ball, would the gun be able to handle the standard smokeless 45 lc cartridge, or would you have to use blackpowder loads?
 
Guns for CAS

I've never quite understood CAS rifles/carbines in .45 Colt. They were never so chambered.

The original WCF cartridges thin walled bottle necks and expanded, giving a tight chamber gas seal. Watch what happens when a CAS shooter ejects a straight wall .45 Colt case - it comes out smeared, sooty black. No big deal, I admit, but why not go with the original round?

The '94 was never intended to handle pistol cartridges and had to be re-engineered to do so. Early models were known to flip rounds backwards and jam up the gun.

The Marlins and '92s get silkier and smoother with age. The '66 and Henry and '73 don't have as secure a lock up, but with moderate loads, give no problems. I own and shoot the '66, Henry and '92, so have some experience.


The 'open tops' look Kowboy Kool and are historic, but I don't think ever chambered in 45 Colt. You can get a .44 cap & ball Remington or Colt as a repro or retro fit.

Question - considering the heavy use (thousands of rounds in a year), why would you want to invest in an open top that will never be as tight as a solid frame gun? Sam Colt wouldn't hear of it and it wasn't until he died that Colt came out with the famous SAA '73 or Model P.
 
cowboy guns

If price is an issue, try Doc Rowland for a Puma M. 92 clone lever gun in .44 Mag...I got the carbine for about $650.....and of course you can shoot .44 Special loads....Winchester even loads a cowboy action .44
Special cartridge....and I had an Uberti Peacemker clone in .44 Mag. that was a good shooter and well made...and priced right....


An original Win. M. 92 in great shape is very expensive and a 3rd generation Colt SAA is ridiculously expensive....
 
H Wally said:
if one put a kirst conversion cylinder on a open top pietta blackpowder cap and ball, would the gun be able to handle the standard smokeless 45 lc cartridge,
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No..the frame and cylinder pin etc. are proofed for bp, not smokeless...if you want the strapless look without going BP/cartridge conversions the Uberti Opentops are the only way to go IMO.
My Bud had a pair in 38 Special, they were sweet and surpriingly accurate too :cool:
He did have the primer piercing problem too... though it was a minor fix;)
 
If you are planning on shooting at steel in a SASS sanctioned club etc. I suggest you stick with revolver and rifle clones shooting pistol calibres.
There are a few modern open tops with the Mason and Mason Richardson conversions now coming onto the market, in .38spl, .44 and .45 They are a cool looking, (more?) period correct firearm. I'm thinking about them to replace my Ruger Vaqeros.
As to using a .45-70 lever gun in CAS matches, I doubt it could be used in anything other than rifle side matches. Too hard on the steel targets in a regular stage and it could be brutal on the shoulder, depending on how it was loaded.
Watch the Exhange and try calling around some of the dealer around the country. I was able to pick up a NIB 1866 Winchester (Uberti clone) in .45Colt for under $900.00 a couple of years back.
 
gregs5190 said:
I have a Kirst conversion for my Ubertti 36 cal 1860.I have experienced no problems however I have been shooting 38 S&W cartridges so there isn't much punch there.
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Yep I do have somebuds thast do shoot smokeless loads(very light CAS loads) but the potential prob lies with someone loading a Factory +P cartridge in there........That's why I say BP only in BP guns.

If you want to shoot smokeless get a gun that was made to do so IMO.
If not load BP catridges for it....way easier then some think.:cool:
 
One of the reasons I got outa CAS is the lack of interest in authenticity and historical accuracy in arms and accoutrements. 45LC in a carbine? Never happened, no reason for it today. If you go with .44WCF (.44-40) you will be able to find arms within your budget, be historically accurate and encounter a cartridge that is very easy to get along with and reload for. Because of the thin walls at the mouth, you can resize in regular dies without lube, saves lotso mess and time. In my opinion the best all-around revolver-carbine round ever devised.
As to a long gun, get a '92 original or clone and you will grin yourself into the winning circle and also have a great deer gun. Smokeless no problem if your stuck on that.
 
I should probably rephrase for clarity - these guns aren't intended for cowboy action shooting. They're more intended as fun and cool looking representatives of that time frame. If I feel so inclined, the lever could be for hunting too, hence the larger caliber preference.

I don't have a preference for any one caliber other than to say that if both my pistol and lever rifle were chambered in the same caliber it would make life easier. If not, well, I've only ever owned milsurps so I don't have much of a clue about what's common and what's not in other calibers. I'm open to suggestions of course.



Sharps '63 said:
I've never quite understood CAS rifles/carbines in .45 Colt. They were never so chambered.

The original WCF cartridges thin walled bottle necks and expanded, giving a tight chamber gas seal. Watch what happens when a CAS shooter ejects a straight wall .45 Colt case - it comes out smeared, sooty black. No big deal, I admit, but why not go with the original round?

The '94 was never intended to handle pistol cartridges and had to be re-engineered to do so. Early models were known to flip rounds backwards and jam up the gun.

The Marlins and '92s get silkier and smoother with age. The '66 and Henry and '73 don't have as secure a lock up, but with moderate loads, give no problems. I own and shoot the '66, Henry and '92, so have some experience.


The 'open tops' look Kowboy Kool and are historic, but I don't think ever chambered in 45 Colt. You can get a .44 cap & ball Remington or Colt as a repro or retro fit.

Question - considering the heavy use (thousands of rounds in a year), why would you want to invest in an open top that will never be as tight as a solid frame gun? Sam Colt wouldn't hear of it and it wasn't until he died that Colt came out with the famous SAA '73 or Model P.
Click to expand...


First off, I don't have a special preference to any particular caliber, except if I can have both my lever and pistol in the same caliber (I've already got enough calibers to reload for).

I'll admit - I don't like the look of the winchester 1894, so won't be a problem whether or not it's chambered for 45... cus I won't be owning it:p;)

That last one is a good point. I recognize they'll never be as tight as a solid frame gun, but how bad are they? I love the look of those open tops a LOT more than the others... it's just my preference for aesthetics, but it's definitely a look I've been obsessed with since I was a kid.

How big an affect does this "tightness problem" have? Even if I was shooting thousands of rds/yr, the gun would simply loosen up rather than have a catastrophic failure right? Like I said, I'm new to this world and am trying to get some perspective.


longknife said:
If price is an issue, try Doc Rowland for a Puma M. 92 clone lever gun in .44 Mag...I got the carbine for about $650.....and of course you can shoot .44 Special loads....Winchester even loads a cowboy action .44
Special cartridge....and I had an Uberti Peacemker clone in .44 Mag. that was a good shooter and well made...and priced right....


An original Win. M. 92 in great shape is very expensive and a 3rd generation Colt SAA is ridiculously expensive....
Click to expand...

I'm definitely not looking for an original of anything:redface: That puma did catch my eye, and certainly looks interesting.

Now, I'm curious though - there's a puma offered from canam at $519(http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=29&cat=3&page=1)

and a puma offered from doc rowland at $888 ( http://oldwestguns.ca/products/product.php?id_product=259 )


Significantly different prices........ for a guy on a budget, canams seems a lot more attractive in price, though I'm curious about the quality.

BCWILL said:
No..the frame and cylinder pin etc. are proofed for bp, not smokeless...if you want the strapless look without going BP/cartridge conversions the Uberti Opentops are the only way to go IMO.
My Bud had a pair in 38 Special, they were sweet and surpriingly accurate too :cool:
He did have the primer piercing problem too... though it was a minor fix;)
Click to expand...

I think I read about that... was he the one that had a slightly larger pin made?

The Cold Lake Kid said:
If you are planning on shooting at steel in a SASS sanctioned club etc. I suggest you stick with revolver and rifle clones shooting pistol calibres.
There are a few modern open tops with the Mason and Mason Richardson conversions now coming onto the market, in .38spl, .44 and .45 They are a cool looking, (more?) period correct firearm. I'm thinking about them to replace my Ruger Vaqeros.
As to using a .45-70 lever gun in CAS matches, I doubt it could be used in anything other than rifle side matches. Too hard on the steel targets in a regular stage and it could be brutal on the shoulder, depending on how it was loaded.
Watch the Exhange and try calling around some of the dealer around the country. I was able to pick up a NIB 1866 Winchester (Uberti clone) in .45Colt for under $900.00 a couple of years back.
Click to expand...

Which companies are making them? If there're going to be more in the near future it might be worth it to wait and see what comes out.

I don't think I'll be doing matches anytime soon, so these guns are purely for my own amusement, and the lever might be for deer if I like how it shoots.

vega said:
One of the reasons I got outa CAS is the lack of interest in authenticity and historical accuracy in arms and accoutrements. 45LC in a carbine? Never happened, no reason for it today. If you go with .44WCF (.44-40) you will be able to find arms within your budget, be historically accurate and encounter a cartridge that is very easy to get along with and reload for. Because of the thin walls at the mouth, you can resize in regular dies without lube, saves lotso mess and time. In my opinion the best all-around revolver-carbine round ever devised.
As to a long gun, get a '92 original or clone and you will grin yourself into the winning circle and also have a great deer gun. Smokeless no problem if your stuck on that.
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Right now most decisions are being made on the rifles appearance and cost, with historical accuracy coming second. I am all for historical accuracy, but I don't yet even know if I'll want to go further down this path, and am mainly interested in just having them for fun, and maybe a lever for the bush.
 
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the problem with open top revolvers is that if you load too heavily, you will crush the barrel key because it has a slot down the center for the screw head which keeps the key from falling out. If you replace the key with a solid one, that will not be a problem although I would expect the slot in the cylinder pivot to gradually be crushed larger and the key would have to be driven further and further in. Quite possible that at some point you would have to file the hole in the base of the barrel larger to accomodate a wider barrel key. None of this would be a problem with a Remington with its solid frame

cheers mooncoon
 
After all of 10 seconds of contemplating the barrel key problem... would it work to have a barrel key that protruded from the opposite side it was inserted from, and have a strong cotter pin type insert to hold it? That way it would be held snug, but also not need to be driven in as hard.

I guess the alternative is to not go overboard on reloads.

Would most commercial regular 45lc or 38 special loads be considered too hot then? (I know it's asking a quite broad question, but if I could find manageable or weak enough loads for it commercially that would solve a lot of problems initially.)
 
Buy a SSA clone by Uberti or someone else in 38-40 [38wcf] and pick up a used Winchester m92 in the same calibre for 550-700$. The 38-40 is a fun old cartridge and very easy to reload with regular type dies. Shoot and enjoy!
Would you ever guess that 38-40 is one of my all time favourite cartridges. :)
 
H Wally said:
Would most commercial regular 45lc or 38 special loads be considered too hot then? (I know it's asking a quite broad question, but if I could find manageable or weak enough loads for it commercially that would solve a lot of problems initially.)
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The Uberti Opentop clones are proofed for smokeless factory ammo, no probs....I'd shy away from the +P stuff though.

They are though a "fragile" design, the hand, bolt, etc. aren't the strongest of designs and were of course improved on for good reasons as Revolvers evolved ;)

For casual range plinking they are certainly worth owning :)
 
H Wally said:
After all of 10 seconds of contemplating the barrel key problem... would it work to have a barrel key that protruded from the opposite side it was inserted from, and have a strong cotter pin type insert to hold it? That way it would be held snug, but also not need to be driven in as hard.
Click to expand...

You don't really need anything to hold the key in place; the purpose of the screw in the original design was to prevent losing the key when the barrel is removed. While the crushing of the key problem can be overcome by making a solid key, the overall problem is that you are holding the barrel back from flying off into space by a key through a slot in the cylinder pin. It seems probable to me that the heavier the thump you put on the barrel weather from elongate bullets with greater friction or from heavier powder charges or a combination of both, the more you stand to compress the metal at the front of the slot and have to adjust for this initially by pushing the key in farther and as it becomes more extreme by a wider key and if necessary a wider slot in the base of the barrel to accomodate the wider key. Remington and pistols with an enclosed frame hold the barrel back by a strap of metal top and bottom and you would have to stretch these straps to increase the cylinder gap (to the barrel). It is a much stronger design for the heavier impact of cartridge bullets against the base of the barrel

cheers mooncoon
 
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