Thumb Safety on M&p

yeah but the M&P is available without the mag disconnect, so you could just say it came without it. And yes I know the ones without are stamped on the slide but you could also say the slide was replaced on warranty service. If you wanted to get around the modification rule you could. :)
 
GIGGIDY said:
yeah but the M&P is available without the mag disconnect, so you could just say it came without it. And yes I know the ones without are stamped on the slide but you could also say the slide was replaced on warranty service. If you wanted to get around the modification rule you could. :)
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The S&W M&P has a warning on the slide indicating it has no mag disconnect for those pistols sold without one. I have confirmed with S&W that NO M&P's have been shipped to Canada without the warning when the gun did not come with a disconect. If you remove it the gun is illegal to be shot in IDPA.

TDC - It is not a question of asking. As has been pointed out the absence becomes obvious when the unload and show clear commands are followed. It is much easer just to compete within the rules.

Take Care

Bob
 
Westicle said:
when given the unload and show clear, drop hammer command if the magazine safety is removed the gun will obviously fire without a magzine in, most SO's upon seeing an M&P expect the competitior to put a mag in to lower the hammer.....

obviously a competitor can fake this, but it would only take one slip and he would be DQ'ed.
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DQ'd under which rule? 10-6.1 unsportsmanlike conduct (cheating)?

I would rather have thought he would be moved from production to open under rule 6.2.5.1.
 
JohnC

Different sport. Removal of a safety device in IDPA is not allowed. The gun would not be legal to be shot in an IDPA event and the shooter would be disqualified.

Take Care

Bob
 
mp-pistol-tm.jpg


http://w ww.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/20/sw-mp-pistols-now-with-thumb-saftey/
 
Westicle said:
when given the unload and show clear, drop hammer command if the magazine safety is removed the gun will obviously fire without a magzine in, most SO's upon seeing an M&P expect the competitior to put a mag in to lower the hammer.....

obviously a competitor can fake this, but it would only take one slip and he would be DQ'ed.
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This doesn't make sense from a handling point of view as well as from the competitive angle. Inserting a magazine to "dry fire" is retarded. You insert a magazine to load the pistol. The mag safety only promotes ignorant gun handling. From the competitive side the removal of the mag safety is not a "performance enhancing" modification so why the controversy?

TDC
 
Tdc

The IDPA rule is that no safety Device may be removed from a firearm. There is nothing ignorant about the rule.

"Inserting a magazine to "dry fire" is retarded."

Nope wrong again. The purpose of dry firing the gun is to ensure it is empty. With a mag desconnect in place a mag must be in the gun to achieve this. The gun can't load itself, the precedure is perfectly safe and is required both in IDPA and IPSC.

The rule regarding removal of safeties has nothing to do with performance enhacing though on some guns removing a mag disconnect can achieve an improvement in the trigger, the Hi-Power comes to mind.

If you want to remove safety devices from your firearm fine, just don't show up wanting to shoot IDPA with the safeties removed. Those of us who shoot IDPA understand the rule and accept it.

Life is simple why make it so difficult?

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
The IDPA rule is that no safety Device may be removed from a firearm. There is nothing ignorant about the rule.

"Inserting a magazine to "dry fire" is retarded."

Nope wrong again. The purpose of dry firing the gun is to ensure it is empty. With a mag desconnect in place a mag must be in the gun to achieve this. The gun can't load itself, the precedure is perfectly safe and is required both in IDPA and IPSC.

The rule regarding removal of safeties has nothing to do with performance enhacing though on some guns removing a mag disconnect can achieve an improvement in the trigger, the Hi-Power comes to mind.

If you want to remove safety devices from your firearm fine, just don't show up wanting to shoot IDPA with the safeties removed. Those of us who shoot IDPA understand the rule and accept it.

Life is simple why make it so difficult?

Take Care

Bob
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Training oneself to clear a pistol by inserting a magazine contradicts the act of loading the pistol. Similar actions for different results?? Regardless whether the pistol is unloaded or not we always treat them as if they were loaded. Thus, we don't point them at anything we are not willing to destroy, and we ensure that we indeed want to destroy what is in front of it prior to pressing the trigger. So why do I see 99% of the competitors simply close the slide and press the trigger without a proper sight picture, and without observing where the muzzle is pointed? The status of the firearm is irrelevant when discussing firearms handling.

If the rule has nothing to do with performance enhancement then what is the purpose? The mag safety provides no advantage over any other system out there. In fact its a disadvantage. How would removing this handicap and rendering the pistol similarly capable to that of every other pistol be either a performance enhancement or a safety concern?

TDC
 
Tdc

"If the rule has nothing to do with performance enhancement then what is the purpose?"

To ensure competitors do not remove safety devices on their firearms. I would have thought that to be self evident. Nothing to do with "performance enhancement", you take pills for that.:D

"The mag safety provides no advantage over any other system out there."

Tell that to S&W they installed it IDPA/IPSC didn't. It is a safety device so it can't be removed. Why? Because the rule book says so. Live with it.

"How would removing this handicap and rendering the pistol similarly capable to that of every other pistol be either a performance enhancement or a safety concern?"

You keep going on about performance enhancement. Why? That isn't the point of the rule. See above. The device is no handicap and I am told there are documented cases where such a device has saved officers lives. I assume that is why S&W installed it in the gun. Take the issue up with S&W.

Take Care

Bob
 
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I've said it before and I say it again: magazine disconnecter "safeties" are inherently unsafe.

I will never buy another pistol so mal-equipped.
 
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Wendell said:
I've said it before and I say it again: magazine disconnecter "safeties" are inherently unsafe.

I will never buy another pistol so mal-equipped.
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They're only unsafe in the hands of those lacking the mental facilities to learn the proper handling drills for that particular firearm.

I've owned BHP's for over 30 years now. I carry one with a CCW permit when down in the US, which is a good part of the year - which means I'm statistically likely to have been carrying a loaded firearm with a magazine safety longer than any ten Canadians who have never had an opportunity to carry a firearm unless they were at an approved range and all the restrictions that goes with that. I also carry a BHP on an ATC - where again, I'm probably putting in more time carrying and handling a loaded firearm with a magazine disconnect than any other ten Canadians who are restricted to ranges.

In addition, I've carried a BHP throughout my service in the CF and taught the weapon as an instructor in the battle schools. I don't see a rash of ND's with the weapon, which is something I would certainly seem to expect if indeed it was "inherently unsafe". Nor have I seen anything that would suggest there are more ND's with Brownings than with the C7A1 or any of the other personal weapons we carry around loaded all the time while on tours.

No ND's on my part, nor have I ever seen one despite all the range time teaching this weapon.

So in fact, if I may muse a bit, I've probably got more hours actually carrying a loaded BHP, complete with magazine disconnect, than many of our younger American friends carrying handguns without the magazine disconnect and busily criticizing it while they have little or no experience with it.

In my experience all the talk about the dangers of magazine safeties is a nonexistent problem. However, the solution is simple: for those who find these concerns preying on their mind or fear they are incapable of safely handling this weapon, just don't buy one.

Oh... don't join the CF either: they expect you to be capable of being taught to handle the Browning safely, including its magazine disconnect.

As to the topic at hand, if I had my choice of an M&P with or without the thumb safety, I'd choose the thumb safety option. An M&P without a safety won't fire as long as you don't pull the trigger of course. But then, neither will your 870, Remington 700, AR-15, etc - but we don't seem to have a problem with having and using the safeties on those firearms.

The real safety is the space between your ears, but I am also personally in favour of mechanical safeties as well.

Others, of course, may feel differently.
 
Wendell said:
I've said it before and I say it again: magazine disconnecter "safeties" are inherently unsafe.

I will never buy another pistol so mal-equipped.
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So buy one without the 'disco' and be happy - no issue, just get the part number and ask for one.. I'm thinking the IDPA guys didn't want people running around with "gas pedal" ambi safeties and disabled grip safeties on a 2 pound trigger, in their IWB holsters (I can see where that might be a concern with a few hundred people of mixed skill levels at a match)

ETA, looks like a familiar line of text on the right side of the slide on Julie's gun, maybe she ordered it that way. Part number 109301 in 9mm, 109300 in 40
 
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I had (sold on EE) an M & P 45. It did not have either a thumb safety or a magazine safety. If I could get one without all the safeties then anyone should be able to. Just my two bits worth.
 
Canuck44 said:
"If the rule has nothing to do with performance enhancement then what is the purpose?"

To ensure competitors do not remove safety devices on their firearms. I would have thought that to be self evident. Nothing to do with "performance enhancement", you take pills for that.:D

"The mag safety provides no advantage over any other system out there."

Tell that to S&W they installed it IDPA/IPSC didn't. It is a safety device so it can't be removed. Why? Because the rule book says so. Live with it.

"How would removing this handicap and rendering the pistol similarly capable to that of every other pistol be either a performance enhancement or a safety concern?"

You keep going on about performance enhancement. Why? That isn't the point of the rule. See above. The device is no handicap and I am told there are documented cases where such a device has saved officers lives. I assume that is why S&W installed it in the gun. Take the issue up with S&W.

Take Care

Bob
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Bob,
I agree, its not a performance enhancement. It is also not a safety concern to remove the magazine safety(or disco as it has been called) as doing so(or ordering the pistol without the disco) would render the pistol just as capable or "dangerous" as all the other pistols that do not have such devices. Again, if the removal is not a performance enhancement and its not a safety concern, why the concern if its removed?

The safety concern is teaching people to reinsert a magazine into a firearm to dry fire it. Dry firing is an ignorant action in and of itself, its even more ignorant to have to insert a magazine to do it. Magazine insertion is an part of the loading procedure, not the unloading procedure.

Rick,

The M&P series as well as other striker fired pistols, or even DA/SA pistols like SIGs have mechnical safeties aside from the operator. The addition of positive or active safeties requiring your input are not necessary. Compliance with the fundamental rules of firearms handling/safety is all that is required to handle any and all firearms. No safety device required. The inclusion of safety devices whether they be passive or active is simply an insurance policy in the event of a dropped firearm, where the operator losses all control. When the operator has full control, the device is moot. Anyone who has enough sense to use a positive safety is usually intelligent enough to comply with the fundamental rules of firearms safety. A hundred safety devices on a firearm won't make a difference if the idiot running it fails to employ them. Kind of like seat belts and traffic laws.


TDC
 
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what do you suggest TDC, that IDPA and IPSC right a specific set of rules for every gun being used in competition >>??

cause that is the only other option.....

the "do not remove any safety device" in IDPA covers everything from 1911 grip safety (disconnector) to removing the safety notch on a glock trigger, or in this case the magazine disconnect in an M&P..... or browning hipower for that matter.

whaty is so hard for you to understand that, or are you just arguing for arguments sake... cause I can understand that.

why is dry firing "ignorant"... a lot of people use dry firing as a form of practicing trigger control....

remember this is a sport, and as such it has rules... IDPA for example asks that you dry fire the weapon to show clear, you cannot decock it, you actually HAVE to fire it so that the range officer is certain that there is no ammunition in the chamber.....

again it is a sport.... if that is so hard for you to comprehend then I would say participating in said sport would be to hard for you as well....

think also of the liability factor that the "sport" would set if it advocated the removel of a safety device.... litigation.
 
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