7.62x54R in modern sniper rifles

tetan

tetan

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Till yesterday I was under impression that besides SVD there are no more modern sniper rifles chambered in 7.62x54R. I was wrong!
Have you guys heard about 7.62 TKIV 85? It is apparently still in production and used as sniper rifle in Finland. Furthermore. It is actually based on Mosin/Nagant rifle! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_Tkiv_85
Additionally, Russian special forces are using some newest bolt action rifle which is also chambered in 7.62x54R and accuracy somewhat comparable to AI/AW in .308.
But the best part is, that Russian Izhmash manufactures Civilian/Sport version of the very same sniper rifle just with different stock and diopter sights. Stock and sights obviously can be replaced later on. Check them out here: http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/rec-cism.shtml

Why don't we see any of those rifles here? They do not look scary and dealers should not have big problems importing them. What is the problem?
 
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Russians are pragmatists for the most part. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

The 7.62X54R is to them what the 308 is to NA shooters. A standard that is hard to change despite the many 'better' options.

Unfortunately, Russian firearm tech is usually looked upon as crude and second rate despite the fact that they do very well in certain disciplines.

NA shooters have decided that a rimmed cartridge cannot be a modern cartridge so why bother offering a rifle for that. I see that they also make a 308 version. I am sure that would get a bit more interest.

As more target shooters discover the benefits of certain Russian rifles, the interest IS growing for their stuff. Will always be small vs the domestic stuff.

The Moisin Nagant can be made into a very nice shooting rig. The mag system runs surprisingly smoothly and the trigger can be tuned to a very nice pull.

I have seen modified MN's used in major sniper shoots in E. Europe. There certainly is no fear that the action will not work when dirty :)

Within the performance of the 7.62R cartridge, works just fine.

Also, reports show that ammo made specifically for accuracy from E. block countries shoot very very well. Stuff we just don't see on this side of the pond.
Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Russians are pragmatists for the most part. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

The 7.62X54R is to them what the 308 is to NA shooters. A standard that is hard to change despite the many 'better' options.

Unfortunately, Russian firearm tech is usually looked upon as crude and second rate despite the fact that they do very well in certain disciplines.

NA shooters have decided that a rimmed cartridge cannot be a modern cartridge so why bother offering a rifle for that. I see that they also make a 308 version. I am sure that would get a bit more interest.

As more target shooters discover the benefits of certain Russian rifles, the interest IS growing for their stuff. Will always be small vs the domestic stuff.

The Moisin Nagant can be made into a very nice shooting rig. The mag system runs surprisingly smoothly and the trigger can be tuned to a very nice pull.

I have seen modified MN's used in major sniper shoots in E. Europe. There certainly is no fear that the action will not work when dirty :)

Within the performance of the 7.62R cartridge, works just fine.

Also, reports show that ammo made specifically for accuracy from E. block countries shoot very very well. Stuff we just don't see on this side of the pond.
Jerry
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I wouldn't call that Russian love to 7.62x54R a pragmatism. It is more of conservatism and making sure they do not introduce too many new calibers.

When it comes to Tkiv-85, even so it is based on Mosin-Nagant action it was heavily modified and has some specialy designed for it trigger.

But the most interesting is that newest Russian CISM rifle I've mentioned in my original post. I've seen some results from professional military competition and I have to tell you that rifle shows performance identical to performance of AI/AW. Here is a military version of this rifle: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn28-e.htm

But the main question is: why don't we see those rifles here? Do you think they would not sell?
 
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Not only does the Finn rifle use a MN action, they use the ones with hex receivers - that is, the older ones.
There was a company in Montreal importing Russian arms. The CISM rifle you mention was one of their offerings. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons, the business failed.
 
Would they sell? Sure, if the price was right which is likely, not very much.

No different then a Norinco precision/tactical rifle. Or a LADA luxury sports sedan. maybe the product is great but many will simply dismiss due to the perceived performance of the brand.

There is a very ingrained culture that eastern bloc firearms are crude but functional. Not particularly accurate.

Also, the Russian manf would have to adapt their receiver mounts to work with Western rails and rings. Simple change but most rifles I have seen are set up for mounts we don't use or want to use.

The only real solution is for partnership between a Western brand with Russian manf to hopefully, lower cost yet bring up the quality.

The marriage of the Croatian Springfield XD and Zastava Rem Mausers are some examples that can be made to work very well.

Making a large action, mag fed, robust and accurate 338LM tactical platform with say a Badger, McMillan, HS or even Springfield, Armalite, DPMS moniker would get the job done especially if pricing fits the masses.

Right now, outsourcing is becoming a bad thing especially in the gun fraternity. Make it at home is the growing trend.

Can't say that is a bad thing either. Canadians need jobs too.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
...Right now, outsourcing is becoming a bad thing especially in the gun fraternity. Make it at home is the growing trend.

Can't say that is a bad thing either. Canadians need jobs too.

Jerry
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Considering what is going on with economy it is hard not to agree with you. But I'm 100% sure that when it come to firearms we never ever going to see anything inexpensive and accurate manufactured in Canada. I hope nobody here is naive enough to believe that our "big brother" will allow something like that to happen.
Additionally, I think that is is just impossible to compete with Russians when it comes to inexpensive and functional firearms. We can make slightly better high-end-overpriced sniper systems worth $10-$20K that will show a little bit better result that $1000 sniper rig from Russia. We just can not do it cheaper and better then they can because they invested decades into perfecting their trade and billions of dollars into factories that are highly specialized for weapon manufacturing.

I remember that we had importer for the Russian guns (I even got my Viking handgun through them) and I know that they have been pushed out of business. It's kind of obvious that Russian weapons are in much higher demand then norcs but none of the Canadian dealers picked up Russian line. Why? Is there something "political" behind it?

IMHO any dealer that can bring here such CISM or TKIV rigs can easily sell up to 1000pc if price is right.
 
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762shooter said:
Those frugal Finns! they just keep on recycling those MN actions.
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7.62 TKIV 85 can just "ideologicaly" be compared to MN. Technically, similarities there are little to none. And most definitely no parts interchangeability. :) It is brand new rig designed from the grounds up for long range sniping. But design was somewhat based on NM.
 
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tetan, the fact that we don't make stuff here doesn't mean that we can't.

We do have one of the most modern manf infrastructures with access to all the cutting edge raw material and the knowledge to use it. An infrastructure that is about to have a lot of excess capacity :-(

What we don't have is the will because we would rather be middle men and leave the toiling to another group. Can't blame them really but what happens when the 'serfs' take over the castle?

We produce firearms in Canada and do it very well (Lakeside/Savage). Can we do more? You bet.

The problem is investment. Firearms is not likely a topic that venture capital or banks are going to warm up to. That means well heeled people would have to step up outside their comfort zone, roll up their sleeves and get at it.

Unless our govt starts selling war bonds, I don't see alot of interest.

We can make anything as well as anyone at a price point that is competitive. Look at para-ordinance. Out of Ont somewhere then got so popular that the politics demanded a move south.

We export technical knowledge to foreign countries. We help them develop equipment and tech. We are a knowledge base both in innovation and invention.

We just have a culture right now that workers are expensive and a bad thing. Taxation and benefits dampen profit. Out source 'cheap' labour and reap huge rewards.

The only thing a few will reap is sending our countries future into the hands of those who really don't give a rip.

How's that for a rant?

Jerry
 
Jerry,

I agree with you 100% and I know what you are trying to say. But I probably didn't made my point clear enough. I know very well that we can make here anything! But we will never ever make guns as inexpensive and good at the for example they are made in Russia.
What I'm trying to say is that it is pointless to compete with Russians when it comes to inexpensive firearms as it is impossible to compete with China when it comes to cost of steel, ...etc. We will never win that competition for the reasons we all know way too well. But we most definitely can compete with them when it comes to Hi-Tech technologies.
Yes, we can just merely impose huge duties on Russian weapons (in US they ban them all together) or China's steel but it is not a solution. We all remember how "nice" we all felt about US imposing duties on our lumber.

When it comes to Canadian manufacturers of firearms, as you probably noticed that none of them manufacture simple, inexpensive guns. All of their products are State-of-Art high quality ultra high precision weapons and price tags accordingly represent that. None of them manufactures something comparable to Saiga with price tag $399 or Viking for $550.

As I understand you are the dealer, aren't you? You have all dealer's licenses or permits allowing you to import guns here, don't you? Why don't you get in touch with Izhmash or whatever their name is and begin importing inexpensive guns from Russia? We have hundreds of dealers throughout Canada and they bring guns here from all over the globe but for so many years we do not have dealer for Russian products! How is that possible that we do not have dealer for the second largest exporter of weapons in the world?!

I'd commit to one of CISM rifles in 7.62x54R and something tells me that I'm not the only one here wiling to make such commitment. :)

Ted

PS. I'd probably also commit to that TKIV from Finland but as long as it is not too expensive.
 
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tetan said:
7.62 TKIV 85 is just "ideological" can be compared to MN. Technically, similarities there are little to none. And most definitely no parts interchangeability. :) It is brand new rig designed from the grounds up for long range sniping. But design was somewhat based on NM.
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What are you talking about? I read a very good in depth article on the TKIV and it is quite obvious that the actions are old Mosin Nagants. Yes everything else is new or modified but it's still a Mosin.
 
tetan said:
Jerry,
....
As I understand you are the dealer, aren't you? You have all dealer's licenses or permits allowing you to import guns here, don't you? Why don't you get in touch with Izhmash ....
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The reason that ArmRus is no longer in business wasn't because they didn't supply great guns at decent prices. It was because the government drove them out of business. They brought over a container of firearms that should have been legal to import, but the government delayed and messed around until they just ran out of money.

I bought several things from them, and still have a nice O/U shotgun, a couple of slings and a knife that I bought from Valery and Lena(? She had such a nice voice!).

I heard they moved to Spain, and I hope they are happy and successful where ever they are, they were always nice people to deal with.
 
Leg said:
What are you talking about? I read a very good in depth article on the TKIV and it is quite obvious that the actions are old Mosin Nagants. Yes everything else is new or modified but it's still a Mosin.
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OMG! Really?!! Do you mind posting link to that article?
 
Splatter

I know a story of ArmRus way too well and also got several nice guns through them. But it does not answer a question why no other deal picked up their line!
When ArmRus was still in business they were doing well and logically speaking Canadian dealers should be fighting over that piece of market.
Is there something more about it?
 
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...back to the subject at hand.

The current issue of the Shotgun News has an add for a Finnish Mosin Nagant Model 28/76 Marksmanship Rifle, which is the competition version of the sniper rifle they built out of Mosins.

I had heard that this was done to save money and for reservists, much like the purchase of Chinese AKs for support personal.
 
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