Full Circle

[Johnn Peterson]

I've just made mention of it on another site, but it looks like my reloading experience came full circle today. Got back to where it all started a long time ago with the reintroduction to an old friend/caliber, the 303Br. At tle recent gun show in Duncan, I acquired a 303Br. Jungle Carbine, excellant condition! Cleaner than either of the previous two I owned, and as a few other 'items', foolishly sold.
A very limited supply of 303 bullets but I thought I'd start out with some light loads to 'play' with and to that end, I drew on some of hs4570's expertise with Trail Boss and cranked out some test loads using cast bullets. Next step, and hopefully the road to our local range is open, time to burn powder.
As an indicator of when I started into reloading, the price sticker on the Lyman die box is $11.50. I recall paying a little more than that, but not much.

 

[H4831]

My full circle came a couple of months ago. I remember telling you, Johnn, that I thought I must have given away my copy of the Norma GunBug's Guide.
Then, dug a little deeper in some drawer, and there it was, complete with some penciled in notes!
Just like old home week, looking at my first loading manual, all 24 pages of it, that had gotten me off to a good start in reloading.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

My full circle came a couple of months ago. I remember telling you, Johnn, that I thought I must have given away my copy of the Norma GunBug's Guide.
Then, dug a little deeper in some drawer, and there it was, complete with some penciled in notes!
Just like old home week, looking at my first loading manual, all 24 pages of it, that had gotten me off to a good start in reloading.

Sometimes the God's "smile upon us". Glad to see you found that little treasure.
My newest 'toy' arrived about half an hour ago, a M-68DL Schultz & Larsen in 7x61 S&H, plus three boxes of brass. I think I mentioned picking up RCBS dies and two boxes of Norma ammo for the same at the recent Duncan gun show.
Question, with your experience with Schultz & Larsens and that caliber, any good suggestions for loads? I'm still 'playing' with the rifle but I'll have to check out my copy of the Norma GunBugs Guide and the Norma Ballistics Tables booklet.

 

[stocker]

John: I have a 68DL too. Standard RCBS 7 X 61 dies wouldn't do the trick for my rifle. Full length sized would not chamber in my Shultz. It appears there are several variations to the 7 X 61 chamber, principally a difference between European and U.S. custom chamber reamers. I ended up returning the loading dies and case forming dies which I got from WSS to RCBS with several once fired cases. They lived up to their customer satisfaction rating by replacing them with new Custom dies at no charge to me. I'm up to my ears in brass, both original 7X61 Norma Super and reformed from W-W 300 Win Mag. Watch your loading data sources and double check what brass is being used. There is original 7X61S&H , 7X61 Super and reformed. Capacities vary quite a bit. If you need reformed I'd be happy to do them for you from new W-W 300WM brass (you supply).

 

[stocker]

Speaking of going full circle: 45 years ago I was necking 250-3000 down to make 22-250 cases. Recently couldn't find any new 250-3000 brass so reversed the necking process to make 250 brass from 22-250.

 

[H4831]

Johnn, my experiences were all with the model 65s. I had thought the newer model 68s may have "standardized" the chambers, but Stocker has found the same trouble I talk about, with his 68.
The chambers varried from rifle to rifle. I once took five of the 65, 7x61 Schultz and Larson rifles, home to experiment with. Three of the five would take the reloaded Norma ammo, formed in standard RCBS dies, with no trouble. With the other two, the cases would not go back in.
I loaded every round full up to the Norma GunBug's Guide maximum load, with Norma 205, which no one will say was not a heavy load, because I wanted to foul the gun up, if it was going to. (The distributor got quite a few back!)
Discovered some interesting side notes from my testing and sighting in rifles. Did all my testing and sighting in over a bench rest at 100 yards. Every single Schultz & Larson rifle, right out of the box, in either 7x61 or 308 Norma Magnum, made five shot groups in the 1 to ¼ inch range! I am quite convinced that if I had been a better shooter, they would all have been under the inch, because they were never string out, usually just one out of the group, to make about a 1¼ inch group.
So much for all of what I have read on here about ammunition having to be tuned for each rifle, how they don't shoot well with full power loads, how factory ammo is not accurate, etc. etc. This shooting was all done with either Norma factory loads, or my full power reloads.
With any other brand of rifle I sighted in, at least one out of every two or three rifles, would make a strung out, five shot group, indicating they required bedding.
Johnn, with all your luck in finding these fine old rifles, in mint condition, that you have been getting, I'll bet your 7x61 will be one of the Schultz & Larson's that will reload just like a 30-06! Keep us posted.

 

[stocker]

H4831;
This is the only rifle in my modest collection that I have never bothered to tinker with or adjust as far as bedding, trigger etc. It shoots most re-loads into 3/4 or slightly less and Norma factory into an inch or slightly better. Plenty adequate for a big game rifle. Load work up took little effort as well; determine the max(s). using the 4831's, back off a bit and call it good. Have not bothered to experiment much with other powders.

As for the chamber mine would appear cut to basic minimum dimensions for the cartridge as nearly as I can tell. Prior to S & L rifles landing in the States I understand various US reamer makers did their "interpretation" of what the chamber should be and I have noted considerable difference between cartridges from rifles chambered in N.A. from mine. They tend to be fatter (less taper) approaching the shoulder. Most interesting that you found that variance between S & L rifles. Have to assume they were re-sharpening reamers that needed replacement. As S & L's primary market was probably Europe and at the time was not likely a hotbed of reloading activity their criteria was likely based on being able to accept a factory cartridge for a one time use.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Johnn, with all your luck in finding these fine old rifles, in mint condition, that you have been getting, I'll bet your 7x61 will be one of the Schultz & Larson's that will reload just like a 30-06! Keep us posted.

Yes, as of late I have 'seem' to stumble upon some classics in very nice condition. I'm pleased, but I think if I 'stumble' upon any more any time soon, my better half's patience will run thin. Sometime down the road, I would like one more Schultz to round out the family, a 358 Norma Magnum.
This one I hadn't seen prior to the guy bringing it over although he did send pictures and it didn't look too bad. Physically seeing it, it looks better than I had hoped.
Because of some of the controversy and comments on dimension variations, I thought I'd do some preliminary checking. I assumed the once fired brass had been fired in that gun but an attempt to chamber an empty case was a definate no go. So, I thought I'd resize a case ot two and try chambering again. Another 'assumption' was the dies were factory standard, NOT! I think the previous owner had trimmed the base of the sizer, but as usual, I turned the die down until it just touchedthe shell holder, and, scratch one brass. $^^#@!$%*Oh DARN!
Next, I tried another case and just kept screwing the die down and trying the case 'til it would chamber. When it did go, the mouth of the die was just a few thou off from touching the belt. Now the empty would chamber. Next step, get some 7mm bullets and "go for the gold".

 

[Johnn Peterson]

John: I have a 68DL too. Standard RCBS 7 X 61 dies wouldn't do the trick for my rifle. Full length sized would not chamber in my Shultz. It appears there are several variations to the 7 X 61 chamber, principally a difference between European and U.S. custom chamber reamers. I ended up returning the loading dies and case forming dies which I got from WSS to RCBS with several once fired cases. They lived up to their customer satisfaction rating by replacing them with new Custom dies at no charge to me. I'm up to my ears in brass, both original 7X61 Norma Super and reformed from W-W 300 Win Mag. Watch your loading data sources and double check what brass is being used. There is original 7X61S&H , 7X61 Super and reformed. Capacities vary quite a bit. If you need reformed I'd be happy to do them for you from new W-W 300WM brass (you supply).

On examination of my die, after the fact, I wonder if perhaps that's why it was trimmed?
I appreciate your offer, however, I did get two boxes of Norma factory loads at the Duncan gun show. Two boxes of new Norma brass and one box + of once fired came with the gun as part of the deal. Thanks again but I'm good to go, for a while anyway.

 

[H4831]

Johnn, it's been a long time since I did that checking of the rifles and I don't have notes. However, when you mentioned the fired case not going in the chamber, a far away bell started to tingle in my head! It almost seems to me that I came across that. I will be interested to know if a fired Norma factory will go back in when you try it.
I always thought the Norma ammo was quite hot, as well as the loading figures in the GunBug's Guide, for the 7x61. There was no chronographing available at that time, but I worked out a way to compare powders.
Using my 270 I would sight in 2 to 3 inches high at 100 yards, first using my standby (go to) powder, Norma 205. Then I would see what the drop was at 500 yards.
Next, using every component the same, except powder, I would load the same charge of H4831 and check the drop at 500 yards. There was not much difference in drop between Norma 205 and H4831. About 2 inches less with N205, and my best group at 500 was under 5 inches with my Sako.
Of course, the H4831 powder I was using was the war surplus variety from Hodgdons.
Years later, when Hodgdon's started to sell newly manufactured H4831, they said to use the same data as with the old surplus powder. By that time I had access to a good chronograph, so I checked the two powders. Again, in my 270, everything the same except the new and old powders, using 130 grain bullets, the old powder was 100 fps faster and about half the spread, compared to the newly manufactured powder!
You may not have any Norma 205 and maybe no loading data with other powders. So based on my figures the new H4831 would be a bit slower than the N205, as shown in their guides.
Hopefully, we can discuss all this at the Kamloops gun show!

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Hopefully, we can discuss all this at the Kamloops gun show!

I'd like that. With the 'goodies' I've picked up the last little while, my 'mad money' fund is at an all time low "0". I would like to attend the Kamloops show though. Oh, in case you're interested, I've just sent you & a friend a PM concerning a model 71 & 64, both apparently deluxe models that were brought to my attention as for sale.