Varget not burning.

phishroy

phishroy

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Just got back from the range.
Was trying out varget in my 45-70 marlin Guide gun for the first time.
I thought I would give it a try since I have lots of varget for my 308.
I looked up a load in the lyman manual.

The load I was using was 51 grains of varget under a 405 grain lead bullet with a light crimp.

I shot 2 groups, first was a 5 shot second group was stopped after the 3rd shot and the velocity was between 1530 to 1590 f/s.

The thing that made me worry is that I was noticing some amounts of unburnt powder in the cartridges after ejecting them.
I noticed this on my 8th shot and thought it was maybe a problem with just that cartridge.
So I looked carefully at all the other empty shells and tapped them upside down on the shooting bench and a number of them still had a few grains of unburnt powder which really surprised me.

Has anyone had this happen to them?
Is it common in the 45-70 due to the huge capacity?
What can be the cause of this, could it have been simply to cold, since it was around -5 outside?
Just trying to figure out if this is normal or not, I suspect not but would like to find out how this can be avoided if possible.

Thank you
 
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I have never loaded 45-70 myself but I have used a bunch of varget in various temps (-20 - +30) and never had the problem you are describing.

I am wondering if it was damp where your powder was stored or when you were loading these up. Could the cases have had water/oil etc. in them?
 
In the 45/70, Varget is a little on the slow side, but works good with heavy loads(at least in warm weather.) You have a few things to get around, in cold weather this kind of combo needs a.) tight case neck tension on bullet
b) serious crimp in proper groove provided
c) move up to magnum primer
I'd just switch to AA2015,Rel.7, or 4198 in that order.
 
Had this problem in the 45/70 with 3 powders, H4198 is the answer, and makes good velocity with this caliber. Tried 3031,RL7, Varget. Hodgdon Benchmark would be my second choice, works good in the triple 4 for me. Primer did not make a difference, tried 3 brands, magnum regular match....

Andy
 
Unburnt powder in the amounts you describe isn't a big deal unless you also noticed a bit in your gun's barrel and the groups accuracy wasn't great.

The speeds you reported are decent.

I'd look for a powder that gets you close to or at 100% load density which would help reduce unburnt powder as well as make the average speeds more consistent. Ensure that you give a good consistent crimp - my 45-70 prefers a heavy one with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

How was the accuracy with the Varget loads?
 
accuracy with that load in my gun was bad. at 100 yards the 5 group shot was about the size of a pie plate, around 5 to 8 inches and yes, when i cleaned i looked down the barrel and i found a few grains of varget in it. does that change anything?
 
phishroy said:
accuracy with that load in my gun was bad. at 100 yards the 5 group shot was about the size of a pie plate, around 5 to 8 inches and yes, when i cleaned i looked down the barrel and i found a few grains of varget in it. does that change anything?
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Nope, I'd go along with what the others have suggested and see what other powders make your gun shoot well.
 
The "crinklers" (unconsumed particles) are nothing to worry about. That load is very low pressure (~20K CUP) and is below the optimum range for Varget. If it shoots well, then it's a good load for your gun.

With a 405gr bullet in a Guide Gun, you could use more Varget (up to a full case) or go with the same load (51.0 grs) but with faster powders, such as H4895 or IMR3031, or use less of H4198, i.e. 45.0 grs.
 
Thank you for your quick replies.
I guess ill try other powders like 4198 or 3031 and leave the varget for my target rifle.

Was starting to worry if something was horribly wrong with my reloading.

Haven’t had much experiance4 with reloading 45-70 and seeing some unburnt powder made me panic a bit.
Thank you for clearing some things out for me.

So to fallow up on the pressure issue and crimp.
How much crimp should I apply in general? Should I be biting with the case into the lead?
 
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Crimp into the crimping groove as a separate operation from bullet seating, it doesn't take much pressure on the press handle if the die is set up right. I've seen to much crimping create a bump there and the round wouldn't chamber.
 
Varget isn't the best choice for that caliber. Change over to a hotter primer, or preferably, opt for a powder better suited to the .45/70.
 
I have loaded quite a few 45-70 rounds in various pressure guns.
IMR 4198 can not be beat in my opinion in any of them, from Trapdoors to Marlins to Mausers. That said, RL-7 does run a real close 2nd in the Marlin Guide Gun with 405s.
 
Big bore, big case, medium burning powder and a short barrel like the Guide Gun would lead to unburnt powder. Varget wouldn't be your best best for efficiency with those factors.
 
I have a guide gun as well. :rockOn:You'll get powder zombies with lots of powders, H4895, H322 to mention a few. The 45-70 doesn't operate at the sort of pressure needed to burn these powders completely without getting into the danger zone in most types of rifles chambered for this calibre. :eek:I use these powders and simply don't worry about the unburnt kernels.:dancingbanana: A higher load, heavier bullets and a good crimp are all things that help burn up the powder before the bullet exits the barrel. :cool:The short barrel on the guide gun is also a factor. Just my $.02
Sharpset:sniper:
 
That's just the game of reloading. Take a round out and try it, find that it is crap. Go home pick a new powder, a new load, and try again. So I guess what I am saying is there is likely nothing wrong with your powder. It just doesn't work with that primer, barrel length, and bullet. I currently have 17 different powders on my loading table for that exact reason.
 
The notion that some powders are better suited to longer or shorter barrels is not based in fact. It was shown a long time ago that even the slowest of powders were completely consumed by the time the bullet was 3-4 inches out of the cartridge, so all the gases that would be created had been by then.
 
Andy said:
The notion that some powders are better suited to longer or shorter barrels is not based in fact. It was shown a long time ago that even the slowest of powders were completely consumed by the time the bullet was 3-4 inches out of the cartridge, so all the gases that would be created had been by then.
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Hmm, well I just read a report by the CF that studied the efficiency of the 9mm ball ammo in the Browning pistol and they concluded that approx 97% of the powder was actually consumed.
 
Is that bullet a flat base, bevel base or gas checked bullet? What are the bullet diameters and your slugged bore/land diameters? A poorly fitting plain base or bevel base could also be causing accuracy problems. Crimp should be solid in the proper crimp groove. Hard to beat the Lee Factory Crimp die for that purpose although a standard die can also be adjusted for most purposes provided your brass is consistently the same length. IMR3031 is another powder that can leave kernels less than fully burnt if the load is a bit mild.
 
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