Norinco M4
- Thread starter The Cocker
- Start date
Personally, i will be buying once of these once i'm done school for the year or if i can find a job before i finish school. The finish doesn't concern me, its going to get painted anyway. As a student/apprentice i can't justify 2 grand to spend just to go to the range, but half that for something that functions just as well as the one double the price seems reasonable.
It's a Chinese AR for 1/2 the cost of the real deal... and you ladies are worried about paint? 
You can give it an automotive finish, but it will still say NORINCO on the side. Clean the sand out of your ######s and shoot it until it melts. Then get another.
You can give it an automotive finish, but it will still say NORINCO on the side. Clean the sand out of your ######s and shoot it until it melts. Then get another.
Musky Hunter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I must have gotten a wicked deal on my AR. Cost me under $1500 .
I expect that the US is in for some serious crap the next 4 years... not so much from Obama but more from the Democrats as a whole and the large majority that they now control in their House and Senate, thus allowing the anti-gun politicians to force through much of their legislative agenda and with a President that will NOT veto that legislation since he also has a track record of being anti-gun. The NRA will fight it, but win or lose the whole thing is going to be a mess for Americans the next few years with some very negative laws getting passed.
I think those politicians have learned from the past... their next Assault Weapons Ban won't have a sunset clause (they don't need that to get the legislation passed this time) and this time they'll ban a lot more stuff. They're also attacking gun owners in different ways. The end result is that they'll put a damper on the industry but they won't "kill it" as many claim.
The US typically doesn't confiscate people's guns, they stop new ones from being made, sold and imported. There's a good chance they will turn a lot of the existing guns into Federally controlled Class III firearms... this will be devastating for many owners since there are a lot of states that don't allow their residents to own Class III firearms. Here's what a very good friend of mine who's part of a major US Manufacturer of AR's recently wrote to me:
... Shortly after the mid-term elections in 2010. They’ll do it by having the BATFE reclassify semi-autos with certain features as destructive devices (USAS-12, Striker, LHC, Streetsweeper, etc… are examples of how this was already done in the past). That way neither Congress or the Pres can be held responsible for it.
Owners who live in a State that won't allow them to possess such "destructive devices" will have to sell them to someone who lives in a State that allows them, or turn them in for destruction.
There will still be a firearms industry in the US it will simply focus on other things... they'll make 10 round magazines instead of high caps... they'll make compliant AR's instead of the "evil looking" ones. They won't sell as much but then what's happening right now is unprecidented anyways and frankly it's not sustainable.
US State Department control exports and the Presidency and the administration control the restrictions the are in place. My personal feeling is that the anti-gun lobby will continue to bring pressure to restrict firearms everywhere... Canadian anti-gun lobbyists will try to bring pressue on their friends in the US to stop the flow of guns to Canada and it's easy for State Department to do that through their restrictions. The dollar value of the legal civilian firearms trade from the US to Canada is not that big (in the big scheme of things) so I don't see that being much of a factor. It's my hope that the US will focus on controlling their domestic firearms and won't care about the exports... they may loosen restrictions. Once the demand for guns in the US is strangled by new laws there will be capacity and if export permits can be approved then Canada and the rest of the world will be able to buy lots of product... but don't expect the prices to be slashed. Some prices will fall to clear out inventory that can't otherwise be sold... but saleable items that can't be made any longer will skyrocket in value as they get bid up by potential buyers.
Like I said the next couple years could be a mess.
The costs to process export permits will continue to rise because they now want that division to be self funding which means the permit fees need to generate substantial portions of the cost to run those departments. I fear our fee costs will continue to rise (not fall) and that means higher prices not lower.
As for American companies moving to Canada... can't see that happening. It doesn't make sense economically and they would still need consent from the US State Department... it's not just the "guns" that are controlled it's the technology, the knowledge, the tools and machinery, the manuals, even the armorers courses. It's all regulated.
Having said all of that... it's not all doom and gloom for Canada. We have product flowing... parts arriving... etc.. Yes prices tend to rise but that's not unusual... such is life.
What happens over the next couple years is anyone's guess... only time will tell who is/was right
Mark
How was the situation like back when the AWB was still in place? From what I have undertood from you, if the future AWB comes in place, cool things will be more expensive and harder to get. The most benifit we will get out of this are sporting arms only.
As I understand most people are curious for a range report regarding these new Chinese rifles. While I have not shot any from this exact batch, I did shoot the prototype rifle quite extensively on numerous occasions. I used it in several tac rifle matches as well as just putting it through its paces at the range. I can say that these rifles shoot just fine; both in terms of accuracy and in reliability. After putting probably somewhere around 1500 rounds through it I encountered one stoppage which I believe had more to do with the ammunition than the rifle itself. Even if it was the rifle one round in well over a thousand is not bad. I don't know of many people who can say with genuine certainty that their rifle is capable of that.
True the finish on it leaves something to be desired and there are some rougher tooling marks on it. But seriously, as long as your physical abilities hover somewhere around not walking into doorways or poking yourself in the eye whilst eating ice cream you can take this rifle out of the box and compete quite handily with it.
True the finish on it leaves something to be desired and there are some rougher tooling marks on it. But seriously, as long as your physical abilities hover somewhere around not walking into doorways or poking yourself in the eye whilst eating ice cream you can take this rifle out of the box and compete quite handily with it.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Good to hear from someone who actually knows what the heck they are talking about.
Good on Arms East and Lever for bringing them in
Shouldn't you be sitting in the milsurp section Claven?
I collect milsurps, but more often than not, I shoot my SAN-CG or an AR. Learn something new every day, huh?
Not really in my particular case. I have lots of other .223/5.56 black rifle options in the stable. If they never come I'll lose no sleep. I just personally do not see the value in a butt-ugly $900 AR that looks way crappier than the nastiest used american AR I've ever seen. Hell, even the CQ311's I've handled were fit and finished nicer than these mutts, metric threads and all!
YMMV.
The idea that Norinco (or any other brand) is going to "bring down the price of other NA manufacture rifles" seems to display a misunderstanding of why prices are what they are... I think it's naive and just wishful thinking.
The pricing of NA manufactured rifles (ie U.S. Made) is based on the US Dealer Cost, the currency exchange rate, the export permit costs, transport costs, brokerage costs. Those are all set costs that have NOTHING to do with the Canadian importer/dealer nor are they in any way affected by the price of a Norinco rifle. The ONLY factor that is controlled by the Canadian dealer is the margin (profit) that he adds onto the cost and thereby sets his retail selling price. That part he can adjust.
But here's the point... Dealers in this country try to add enough profit to cover all of their operating costs (rent, heat, insurance, labour costs, phone, etc.) and still have money left over (that's the profit) so they can take home a pay cheque for all their risk and efforts. Cheaper Norinco AR's won't change what a dealer has to make profit on his NA rifles to stay in business. If he drops the price of his NA rifles all he is doing is getting rid of his inventory and trying to reduce his losses... he won't re-order and he won't order more. In fact he won't stay in business... not selling NA rifles anyway.
I sell my products at the prices that I need to get in order to cover my costs and make a profit... yes I make money doing what I do... I'm not ashamed of it and I don't apologize for it. If I can't sell my AR's for what I need to get then I blow-out the ones left in stock and I move on to something else... or I shut down the business and lay on a beach somewhere warm.
If I could buy NA rifles cheaper (and thereby sell them cheaper) then I'd already be doing it... I think I drive a pretty hard bargain with my suppliers... I think every other importer and dealer in Canada does the same thing. It's beyond me what makes people think that all of a sudden a $500 or $700 or $900 Norinco AR will change the pricing structure of RRA, or STAG or Bushmaster or LMT or COLT, etc. They couldn't care less... DPMS has backorders for over 100,000 rifles (that's over a years production). If you called them up today and told them you'd order 1,000 guns but you need a better "deal" because you need to compete with Norinco, the guys at DPMS would fall off their chairs laughing at you.
If all that mattered was price then I'd dump every AR we have and shut down the business... either that or jump on the Norinco band-wagon and eventually the only gun that dealers would have would be Norinco... until some other company offered a cheaper one. Thankfully price is NOT all that matters. Brand, quality, cosmetics, features, materials, durability, all matter... even perception... they all play a factor.
I think the new Norinco AR's are great... I honestly do. I think it offers many shooters an opportunity to get an AR and have fun with a much lower entry point than was previously possible... an entry point that previously was beyond their means. I won't sell any less AR's because of the Norinco's... we sell every AR we can get our hands on... in fact I suspect that over time we'll sell more. As new shooters start with a Norinco and learn the joys of AR's... they'll move on... trade "up" if you will and eventually buy other brands. I think that's great for the industry.
As for other brand's prices being driven down... well I just don't see that... I wish it was true but don't see how that's going to happen.
Just my .02 cents worth (I hope it's still worth that much
Mark
I understand totally what you are saying , I was in no way trying to complain about the dealers up here , I know that you guys have to make a dollar and it costs alot of money to bring in stuff from the states. I think what I should have also written was that it would be cool to live in the states where you could get those prices and also where you can hunt with your AR!!!
The "US" isn't everything that Canadian's think it is...
In the US they have what's called CLASS III firearms. These were created (essentially) if memory serves me right in 1934 by the NFA (National Firearms Act) and includes everything from full auto machine guns to short barrel shotguns and short barrel rifles. Any rifle with a barrel under 16" is a CLASS III firearm.
These aren't exactly prohibited but they are highly restricted. First, you have to pay a $200 tax stamp to own one (it's for each gun). Next you have to be approved by the Federal Governement to buy each CLASS III firearm you want (usually takes a few months for each application). Most important you have to live in a State that allows you to possess CLASS III firearms (not all States allow this).
The Americans can't believe when I tell them that we have all the 7", 10.5" 11.5", 14.5" AR's we want and there's no difference between a 7" AR and a 24" AR in this country. They get around it by having what are classified as AR Pistols.
But to have a legal AR pistol it has to be manufactured as an AR Pistol (the receiver) and you can't add a stock, etc. to it. The moment you put a stock on an AR pistol or add a vertical foregrip to it you've created a CLASS III firearm and committed a felony.
This is the same for a handgun. If you take a Glock and put a foregrip on it you've created a CLASS III firearm and comitted a felony unless you first applied for a CLASS III registratio for the gun and paid the $200 tax stamp.
Their laws are as screwed up as ours. Some stuff may be nice (I agree) but some stuff really sucks.
Mark
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Maybe Marstar's M4's are specially made for Marstar & will have a better fit & finish than the ones that are now here for sale , John always said his M14's were specially made for HIM by Norinco (even though Norinco dose not actually make guns )
To bad Can Ammo couldn't get a run of these marked ( Dominion Arms M4 )
For someone who wants to get there first AR @ $890.00 they are the lowest price available right now . I don't need another one that bad right now . But if Marstar's price difference is like they did for the M14's I guess I'll be making room for one more AR .
Guess we will see in a couple months
