I'm not disputing Mr. Vickers, Mr. Rogers(Pat Rogers), Clint Smith, Jeff Cooper, or any other acclaimed instructor. What I will say is that not everything that these folks teach/preach is gospel. Its all too common for people to eat up whatever it is they're selling without thinking for themselves. I call it marketing mixed with ignorance.
And when their advice is to NOT buy something, and your advice is to buy something, how are we to judge the impartiality of your statement?
Training or not, a light is a must have if you expect to defend yourself and convince the courts the shooting was justified. Engaging an unknown object due to lack of identification wouldn't work in your favor. The unknown could be your own family, its your call. As mentioned above, the possibility that the scumbag in question is armed with a firearm, capable of deploying it and is willing to shoot at a light rather than run away is slim. In any case, proper equipment is only as useful as the individual using it. Get some professional training if you don't already have it.
Training is always good, but this doesn't justify the light. Lights on perps are not always pointing in their faces. When a goblin sees a profile of a dude and a light, you're in trouble. As for you counting on the armed perp to runaway, because they saw a light, well I think your on thin ice. If they are armed, they are prepared for conflict.
For starters its you're not your.
If your shoulder is sore its because you don't know how to shoot your shotgun.
Sniff sniff. I can smell it, machismo. Mixed with, perhaps self-righteousness and maybe even a little bit of ignorance. Do you really think shooting a shotgun is difficult? Do you think that hundreds of foot pounds of recoil is fun? (o.k. maybe a few times) Methinks your opinions are going downhill very quickly. Why si there such a big trend towards reduced recoil shells? Are the consumers of such shells are equally incapable in your eyes to fire a shotgun properly. I can and do shoot a 12 ga pump with 2 2/4 buck and bird all day with no problems. Slugs, I have less tolerance for. Also going to 3" and 3.5" can create some headaches to. I chose a recoil reducing stock because I do not see recoil induced bruising, detached retinas or induced flinches as a good thing. But for you to imply that I am "Not shooting it correctly" is absurd. Everything else we both say has debatable merits, and I enjoy the debate but my opinion of you dropped significantly with this one statement. Recoil is not "manly" it is physics. Dealing with recoil is smart, "putting up with it" is not.
The downside to recoil reducing stocks is their design. Usually some sort of AR type stock which break. The Knoxx Compstock isn't the worst design but it can cause issues for combat clearing and is a fixed LOP.
Perhaps. My m4 style stock does seem pretty flimsy and is the one thing I don't like about the Mesa solution, but no problems yet. If anyone can contribute tales of the breaking I would be curious to hear them. Beltfed and I had just such a discussion a little while ago and he swore up and down that the cheap plastic stocks don't break. I would like to see you debate him on this. I only have the one, and it has given me no problems other than a slight rattle sound near my ear when I sling carry. As for the Knoxx, I don't hear anyone who has one complaining.
Also can you please elaborate on "Combat clearing" a shotgun? Do you mean clearing a jam by griping the fore end with both hands and smashing the butt on the ground?
I believe that this technique is not necesary if you have a quality shotty, like a Marine Mag with flexitab design. Mine has not jammed once in 4 years of use and abuse, and I'm told that flexitab design allows a simple one handed reshucking to clear a jam. No need to play smashy smashy.
I can however apreciate the strength and simplicity of a fixed stock. It is a great solution. But I personally feel that the adjustable length of pull and the recoil reducing capabilities FAR outweigh the small weight and fragility penalty. I may end up going back to a hogue stock, but I doubt it.
machismo is not in my tool box.
Riiiiight.....
Unlike most on this forum with their "tacticool" shotguns I use mine, a lot. Performance and skillset are whats important. By the looks of all the over weight and over-rated accessories I see bolted to the lowest dollar shotguns, the skill level is on the low end.
I can sympathize with your feelings. Lots of pimped norincos and not enough 870 polices and MMs. However don't confuse skill with gear. People have skills and gear is just gear. A skilled shooter with a norinco will do just fine. Your mixing your message here.
The situation dictates the tactics and the tactics influence the gear. A lot of the sh*t posted online or present at the range suffer from everythingitis. The setups are not geared for any defined role/purpose and it shows.
Agreed. But we have to keep in mind that most of CGNers are not combat practitioners. (LE, MIL, SEC, GOV) I Pimped my marine magnum for fun and ####s and giggles. I freely admit that most of it is aesthetic. The most combat it will see are slugs when deer hunting near North Bay, ON. (Unless of course you consider SHTF self defence, but I don't see that as very likely.) Don't forget the fun of shooting, and accessorizing. If someone wants to pimp a ####ty shotty, more to them. It may be tacticool instead of tactical, but that is their perogative. As long as they are happy with it, let them be.
Full length rails that support only the optic are a waste of real estate and add extra weight and cost.
Red dot optics are pointless unless you run slugs exclusively and are near useless for home defense encounters. The engagement distances are extremely short and the offset at short range is a major problem when shooting from cover.
Again you're making assumptions about home defense. Maybe the person lives on an acreage, and by home defense includes bear on property, as well as SHTF looters and whatever else. Home defense does not have to be limited to Waking up in the middle of the night to a goblin already in your home. Also "run slugs exclusively" is a huge overstatement. Just because someone chooses to have a setup geared for slugs, does not prevent them from using the same red dot for buck. While I agree with you enough to subscibe to the same idea myself (no red dot) I will admit that for fast acquisition my aimpoint is king and a 4MOA dot is about right for buck and slugs at distances up to 100 yards. You work with both eyes open thereby granting the ability to have a wider field of view (Flanking). It works great in the dark or low light. And is the fastest sight out there (fast as bead) but with the benefit formentioned. It is significantly faster than ghost rings as you place 1 dot on the target, not one post in one ring on one target.
Now I don't like the added weight and bulk or aesthetic so I choose tritium ghost rings as the best mix of low light, fast accurate and light. It doesn't make it the only choice though. If weight is not a concern (like home defense where you do not have to lug it around all day) then it can be a fine choice.
The same can be said for lasers. A pointless accessory that fails to do anything but flag your position. They do not identify the target and are not needed for short to medium range engagements. At relatively long range the dot becomes difficult to see making it completely useless.
For the record, I'm against lasers. But to you a laser flags your position, but a light makes them runaway? I don't follow your logic. They can both paint your position, but a light will do a better job of giving you away. True it can identify targets, but at what cost? Also, when you say lasers aren't useful at long ranges, you were arguing just earlier about short range is all that is needed. You bias is allowing you to change the situation to fit your criticism, rather than measuring everything under the same conditions. Also, lights aren't very good at longer distances either.
Flip up iron sights DESIGNED for AR15 rifles are slow to use, best suited for intermediate distance shooting and usually lack tritium illumination making them all but useless in low light/no light.
Sure. There are better choices.
Top folders and side folders are convenient for storage and transport which is a non issue. A firearm being stored is not being used which makes it useless. The size of a firearm for transport is irrelevant. The lock up of the mechanism is weak and often sloppy. Folders have a fixed LOP which is far too long for proper defensive work.
Sure. There are better choices.
Pistol grip fixed stocks are usable but can interfere with manipulating the controls of some shotguns. LOP can be adjusted although it is permanent.
Pistol grip only shotguns are a waste of time unless your MO is personal security from a confined space such as a vehicle or at a desk. Even then I would opt for a pistol with greater capacity and less recoil or a short barreled rifle.
Don't forget pistol griped adjustable stocks like the Mesa LEO adapter.
Muzzle breaks serve little purpose and only add length and weight.
Except for breaching. Small price to pay for SHTF prep and aethetics.
Pistol grip forends bind the slide bars and add extra weight and bulk.
I'm not so sure about the binding, but I'm with you on the weight and bulk. My main problem is that you don't gain anything with it.
Heat shields serve no useful purpose. Contact with the barrel is unnecessary. The added weight is a huge negative. Defensive use of a shotgun(or any firearm for that matter) probably won't involve enough rounds fired to worry about excessive heat.
Sure. Forend and sling carry don't create barrel contact. Not really much of a point. Aethetics only to me.
