Competence Level Before Holster Course?

mmattockx

mmattockx

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This came up in the "Reload with Retention" thread and I didn't want to hijack that one, so here we are.

I am waiting on an RPAL and will be buying my first handgun when it comes. Eventually, I want to work up to some IDPA stuff. As mentioned, taking a holster course as a rookie is not that productive until my skills come up to a reasonable level.

So, what is a reasonable level? What should I work on and to what level before looking at holster work?

BTW, I am not a rookie with long guns or shooting in general and have shot borrowed handguns in the past. Just never owned any myself until now.

Thanks,
Mark
 
I'd say being able to hit a 8.5" x 11" paper @ 17-20 yards.

A solid knowledge of your pistol is a must. Make sure it works 100% and have at least 4 mags.
 
Musky Hunter said:
I'd say being able to hit a 8.5" x 11" paper @ 17-20 yards.

A solid knowledge of your pistol is a must. Make sure it works 100% and have at least 4 mags.
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I agree with musky hunter, BUT I believe firmly that a new shooter has to have good feedback as well as obtainable goals.

for example I would start a new shooter at 5 yds..... when the new shooter can keep all his rounds in the 8.5x11 inch paper then move back to 7 yds, then 10 yds and so on.... all the way back to 25 yds.

now what is not discussed is the speed, right now we are just talking accuracy.... when accuracy is attained and the shooter learns to properly align the sights and squeeze the trigger then you can start working on speed....

by starting at 5 yds we are giving the new shooter an easily attainable goal, something they should be able to master in one range session, close enough so they are getting good visual feedback and can see the bulet holes impacton the target.....

hell they may have to come back to the 5 yd line every range session before moving the target out again... so be it, build your confidence.

now on the other hand..... if your shooting IPSC then the black badge course is going to be harder then the IDPA course, BUT do not sweat the little stuff.... stop worrying about if your good enough, get out and shoot shoot shoot.... the more you participate in the actual sport your wanting to try then the more your going to learn.

I would hazard a guess that people learn more in one night of an actual IDPA "practice" night or match then they would be practicing by themselves a dozen times.
 
What is reasonable level? I dont really get this attitude - "go shoot at the barn wall kid until you grow up".

I would think that it is way more reasonable to seek professional advice from the day one. You won't learn any proper skills if you are the shy guy who comes to a range and stands in a dark corner because he is new and does not have skills up to the level to be worthy of "real" training.

Yes you may not have perfect motor skill to be able to qualify for whatever it might be. But I would rather attend a course and listen and watch the whole thing, because it gives you understanding of what you need to archive. Only after that you can go and train these skills alone.

So you come and see that the class is way beyond you, so what? Watch and learn what you can, sky wont fall if you leave the range without badge-shmage this time.
 
It all denends on the shooter some pick it things up quicker than others. The group I shoot with is mostly law enforcment or armed forces so they've usually have shot a firearm or two. ;)

The best way I find for new shooter to build their confidence is to invite them to some skills and drills days and ask the shooter out to plink. When I see they are becoming more comfortable I ask them to shoot at club level matches. This is all done without a holster.

If you're not asked find out who's running IDPA at your club and let them know your interested.

Don't forget to do your part read up on the rules, scoring and procedurals. I find this to be the bigger way to slow down a course then someone routinely scoring three or four down on each target.
 
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Personally I don't care if they hit the paper or not, as long as the bullets go downrange and withing the acceptable areas. Accuracy you can always work on.

I do however want them to be fully familiar with the controls on their handgun. Nothing worse that a shooter who was used to a glock, getting a Sig and forgetting about safeties and decockers and where they are located.
Be familar with recoil of your gun as well.
 
Like you I had lots of firearms time just no hand gun time when I started. I shot 3 times at Slavexs Skills and drills nite and then went and took my black badge course. That couse GAVE me all the confidence I needed. Don't wait "git'r done"
 
mmattockx said:
This came up in the "Reload with Retention" thread and I didn't want to hijack that one, so here we are.

I am waiting on an RPAL and will be buying my first handgun when it comes. Eventually, I want to work up to some IDPA stuff. As mentioned, taking a holster course as a rookie is not that productive until my skills come up to a reasonable level.

So, what is a reasonable level? What should I work on and to what level before looking at holster work?

BTW, I am not a rookie with long guns or shooting in general and have shot borrowed handguns in the past. Just never owned any myself until now.

Thanks,
Mark
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There are a number of ways of learning: You could try to 'self teach', Seek out and obtain less than qualified instruction, or you could seek out qualified instruction.
Finding someone to instruct you on the basics is pretty easy, as is learning to draw from a holster. There is nothing wrong with not being a proficient 'pistoleer' before learning or being qualified with a holster - it really depends on the instruction/instructor.
Everything about it is a perishable skill anyhow -so ongoing, continuous training is generally required to stay sharp.

If you are thinking about IDPA, come out and join the Alberta Tactical Handgun League in a familiarization shoot or a classifier.
I would recommend contacting 'Dragoon' here on the board.

Hope to see you at a shoot!:rockOn:
 
I would agree that an 8.5 X 11 sheet of paper out to 20 yards is a good standard. when I started shooting a couple years ago I started out with PPC and IPSC. Prior to that I only ever shot air pistols, but was a fairly decent shot. Practice the basics - grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger pull, breathing, follow-through until you can meet the 8.5x11 standard, then worry about holster work. The sooner you get shooting with a club the more you are going to learn. Lots of dry fire practice will help enormously in developing the muscle memory for the techniques you learned during the club shoots.

Dont be afraid to ask questions and get involved, and dont worry if takes you some time - not everyone shoots like a pro right away and for some it comes slowly, but have fun anyways.
 
Thanks for the input, guys. It has been quite a while since I fired a handgun, but I expect that one range session will have me able to put them all in the 8-1/2 x 11 page at 20 yards. I have applied to join the Olds gun club and corresponded with Dragoon several times about IDPA and a holster course out there. I should be good to go with it all by the end of summer, no problem.

Mark
 
mmattockx said:
Thanks for the input, guys. It has been quite a while since I fired a handgun, but I expect that one range session will have me able to put them all in the 8-1/2 x 11 page at 20 yards. I have applied to join the Olds gun club and corresponded with Dragoon several times about IDPA and a holster course out there. I should be good to go with it all by the end of summer, no problem.

Mark
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by the end of summer... #### that, get out there today and go shooting... shoot shoot shoot :)

:rockOn: :rockOn: :rockOn:
 
Westicle said:
I would hazard a guess that people learn more in one night of an actual IDPA "practice" night or match then they would be practicing by themselves a dozen times.
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If your IDPA "practice" nights are the same as IPSC "practice" nights where a bunch of guys set up some stages or a mini match and then run them; (and have a lot of fun) then your guess is wrong. :(

After over seventeen years of IPSC practice nights, I can tell you by personal experience that more skills are improved by slipping off to another bay and practicing the fundamentals with specific practice goals with someone else of a similar level or alone.

It's not as much fun, but it is how serious shooters climb the results ladder.

As for matches, there is something to be learned there about "match nerves", but other than that - the same result as above.
 
Learning

owlowl said:
What is reasonable level? I dont really get this attitude - "go shoot at the barn wall kid until you grow up".

I would think that it is way more reasonable to seek professional advice from the day one. You won't learn any proper skills if you are the shy guy who comes to a range and stands in a dark corner because he is new and does not have skills up to the level to be worthy of "real" training.

Yes you may not have perfect motor skill to be able to qualify for whatever it might be. But I would rather attend a course and listen and watch the whole thing, because it gives you understanding of what you need to archive. Only after that you can go and train these skills alone.

So you come and see that the class is way beyond you, so what? Watch and learn what you can, sky wont fall if you leave the range without badge-shmage this time.
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I have lost count of the numbers of people I have taught to shoot firearms or bows.

Something I learned early on is everyone is nervous when they are learning.

In order to teach I like to make the initial sessions as simple as possible and remove as many sources of anxiety as I can.

The fear of missing and appearing foolish cripples most students the first few times out. Often to the point that the new shooter will not be able to focus on the more important basics of the skill set you are trying to ingrain.

Therefore I start all shooters -gun or bow- at absolute point-blank range. Missing is no longer an issue. I have found that this allows the learner to relax and LISTEN to what I am trying to get across.

Breaking a skillset down in this way and eliminating distracting variables is Basic Coaching 101 for any sport.

FYI...I have found that going back to point-blank shooting is an excellent way to focus on fundamentals for the experienced shooter as well. Fear of missing is a killer for the confidence of any shooter and can interfere with the entire shooting process, moving the shooter away from good fundamentals when they try to correct what they think they are doing wrong. In my experience when my shooting starts to get haywire I go back to point-blank shooting and work on fundamentals.

John
 
mmattockx said:
Still waiting on the RPAL in the mail... And the weather to level off. Highs of -18C by Monday.:bangHead:

Mark
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That sucks:D

This winter is really hanging on. I was out yesterday. Burned up around 250-300 rounds through my 22/45. Then 100 through the Norinco C.45 and then about 350 or so 9mm through the M&P shooting steel and chasing shotgun shells. Lots of fun. Right around 0 to +2 so it wasn't bad.
 
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first....your pimp hand must be strong! :)






then work on smooth reloads, trigger discipline,muzzle control and transitioning- try and go nice and slow but nice and smooth, speed will come later. Have fun!
 
"If your IDPA "practice" nights are the same as IPSC "practice" nights where a bunch of guys set up some stages or a mini match and then run them; (and have a lot of fun) then your guess is wrong. "

Sean not sure what they do in Ft. St. John but over here we set up specific drills that emphasis one skill set or another on our practice nights. We also shoot our Qualifier for those that are interested. We get through usual two shooters a night shooting the Qualifier in one bay. 90 rounds minimum to complete so it takes some time.

Our groups tend to be small so we can set up a drill in each bay and just move from one bay to anpther depending on what the individual wants to work on.

We set up at around 6:30 and shoot to 9:30 outside through the summer.

Take Care

Bob
 
in fort st john I try to emphasize one skill per night, for example tactical sequence vs tactical priority, shooting on the move, reloading from cover, shooting around barrels or even the simple stuff like the spin and fire.....

try to get the rules into their heads as well as how to physically do things.
 
GooD Practise

Canuck44 said:
"If your IDPA "practice" nights are the same as IPSC "practice" nights where a bunch of guys set up some stages or a mini match and then run them; (and have a lot of fun) then your guess is wrong. "

Sean not sure what they do in Ft. St. John but over here we set up specific drills that emphasis one skill set or another on our practice nights. We also shoot our Qualifier for those that are interested. We get through usual two shooters a night shooting the Qualifier in one bay. 90 rounds minimum to complete so it takes some time.

Our groups tend to be small so we can set up a drill in each bay and just move from one bay to anpther depending on what the individual wants to work on.

We set up at around 6:30 and shoot to 9:30 outside through the summer.

Take Care

Bob
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Like Bob says we usually have very effective practice sessions and it is nice to have the option of shooting the Classifier a few times a summer.:D

What I also like is, if you need to, we have enough bays that you can set up something you are having trouble with and work away at it.

I have spent a few nights off to the side working on barricades and draws. I hear practise makes perfect but I have yet to see the evidence...;)

John
 
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