Norinco M14 Blew Up

[Boom-Boom]

One thing that p*sses me off is how quickly people get defensive about their beloved norincos. Particularly irritable is the CGN cross-cultural phenomenon as follows: on one side of the coin we have people chatting up a storm about all the home gunsmithing/tweeking/spreading-the-love. We change out bolts. We rebarrel guns. We change out trigger assemblies. We reload up a storm. Then on the other side at the first hint of trouble we quickly jump on folks who have trouble and blow up their guns. Given how people respond to those who have the guts to report that their gun blew up I suspect there are lots more who it happens to and we never hear about it. I have personally rebuilt more than 2 dozen of these things and there are many things to watch out for, some of which can result in seriously unsafe guns (ie: replacing the factory stock with a USGI one that results in hammer-follow, or reloading with slightly high primers)

The fact is this guy's gun blew up in his face; he's lucky he's not seriously hurt. As this type of gun is my favorite on the planet and one that I shoot regularly, personally I'd like to know more about what happened and would hope that others might also benefit, particularly those who are inclined to tinker. I am certainly one of these tinkerers and frankly on a couple of occasions have been lucky. I would suggest we show these folks some support and try and learn from their misfortune such that it does not happen to us.

Sorry for the rant...the design of these guns though is such that tinkering/reloading can be more dangerous than it usually is if you are tinkering or loading for your bolt gun. Maybe we should put together a sticky on safety issues with the M14/M1A/M305 design....if I get some time over the next week I'll maybe start such a thread.

Brobee

I may add, if not done yet, that a thorough exam of the last fired cases and last reloads unfired would be mandatory to help identify the one or several causes of problems associated with reloading for gas guns.

Of course, same analysis for the gun will have to be done.

As B. pointed out, thorough exam and cleaning of this type of rifle is critical.

You can shot a bolt milsurp or else ad nauseum with little risks if you do not clean but no way with an M1 Garand or M14 type.

It is well described in most if not all litterature piece that one's read( OR SHOULD READ)!!!!!!!!!

Talking about high primers:

When I finish loading on my 550, I take EACH loaded round and using a Sinclair hand priming tool, I reseat primers.

I also check cases for incipient head sep., trim every single time, re-uniform primer pockets too and weigh on electronic scale each and every loaded round as well.

Too much time taking???? YES, you are probably right but I have only one set of eyes and fingers.

BTW, that ammo that took so long to load happens to shoot PDG ( pretty darn good).

BB

 

[Pathfinder]

You can see the corner that is busted off and the missing extractor. I'm done with playing with these things, those that aren't can do what they want. Being that I'm not hurt its kind of funny, and I'm not interested in any sort of warranty. I really don't think that I had a case failure or I would have a face full of brass.

It would be interesting to run a Metal hardness test on that gun (since there's a chunk missing in the lug recess )

So who's got a lab ?

 

[Janeau]

I will bet it is a reload issue - excess pressure :

1) The max load of IMR 4895 for the gas gun is MAXIMUM 43.4 grain in the lastest Hornady manual. This is cross referenced in other sources that limit it to 43 grains.
2) this maximum load is with commercial brass - not MILITARY brass - Military brass maximum powder charge can be as low as 39 grains because of case capacity (10 % less)
3) starting with new commercial brass - 3-4 reload and brass should be tossed - how many of you use range brass - and have no clue on many time it have been reloaded and keep on loading case until failure ? I cannot count on how many CGN post I read that state that brass can be kept in service by doing a visual inspection...

4) Brass shall be trimmed to minimum after each firing
5) You should determine the max OAL with the bullet you use and make sure the bullet is not against the throat. - This is overlooked by many gas gun shooter. Having the bullet sitting against the throat can and will raise pressure to excessive level.
6) Chrono your reload - if your load is faster that published velocity, reduce your powder charge. Gas gun ( Garand - M14) operate in a narrow pressure range and that translate in a velocity range of 2600 - to 2700 fps.

Reloading for gas gun is different and you should use safe reloading practice. If you are not willing to follow the rule - stay away from gas gun.

 

[Savage]

And what a strange coincidence that now 3 people who have blown up their Norincos have posted in the same thread.....I dont' really believe in coincidences.

Why dont' we ask Dogleg how many other guns he has blown up with his reloads.....

True and I know the answer Zero .Reloads may contribute but in all likely hood the majority Ka booms are a result of poor workmanship or poor materials this includes both the factory ammunition and rifle manufacturing proceses

 

[Boom-Boom]

What primers were you using? MANY semi-auto blowups are due to soft primers and free-float pins. You **SHOULD** be using CCI No.34 milspec primers. Accept no substitute.

#34 are not available anymore..... right??

BB

 

[tiriaq]

True and I know the answer Zero .Reloads may contribute but in all likely hood the majority Ka booms are a result of poor workmanship or poor materials.

I would disagree. Catastrophic failures of any sort involving modern firearms are rare. And when they occur it is usually the cartridge case that has failed.

With the sheared upper part of the lug seat, it does look as if this rifle fired when it was not properly locked, although the left hand lug and its abutment look normal. First thing to do sould be to carefully inspect recovered cases, and tear down and examine unfired rounds from the same batch. Any proud primers?

What cases were used? .308 or 7.62mm? Fired how many times? Fired from new in this rifle, fired in others, range pickups? What was the headspace situation of the rifle? Were cases fired in the rifle ever gauged? What was the headspace situation of the rifle with respect to these particular handloads? Were the cases sized by running the shellholder against the bottom of the die? Any signs of incipient separations in the recovered cases, or broken down reloads?

It has been long understood that reloading for M-1 and M-14 type rifles (and AG42b and othe semi auto rifles) isn't the same as loading for a bolt action rifle.

 

[t-star]

the blow up i had with the winchester brass SHOWED NO SIGNS of head separation- you couldn't tell it from new brass -i STILL maintain there was a fault in the casing- ie a thinner spot when it was drawn- needless, i threw out all my winny brass( about 2k rounds) b/c i really felt i couldn't trust it, and went to r-p ( i was shooting competition at the time and we were using 20 round mags- 4 5 round groups

 

[DANCESWITHEMPTIES]

I'm sure it was done & I'm sure this guy's is no newbie to reloading, but it's gotta be asked: The brass was full length resized & not simply neck sized, correct? Sorry if this questioned has already been answered...
I use to reload once fired for a Garrand but found the brass incredibly beat up by the ejector on that thing. Some were so beat, they went straight to the trash after shooting.

 

[tiriaq]

I'm just finishing processing a couple of thousand known to be once fired Win. .223 cases. Found a few with split necks, first firing from new.
There are some things over which we have no control, I suppose this is why we really need to keep an eye on the things we can control.
Over the years of running my gunsmithing business, I was able to inspect a number of firearms that failed. Very few that didn't start with an barrel obstruction, the ammunition, or bubba buggering something. Do recall a couple of brand new Cooeys that failed. Barrel separated from the underlug on a Model 84 shotgun (and sailed gracefully through the air, landing 20 feet in front of the shooter), and a Model 39 whose bolt separated from the locking lug, the bolt striking the shooter under the eye, resulting in a little cut on the cheek. I both these cases, the braze job that secured the parts was poorly done, with incomplete coverage of the joint area.

 

[Lee Enfield]

It would be interesting to run a Metal hardness test on that gun (since there's a chunk missing in the lug recess )

So who's got a lab ?

I don't think we need a lab, both pictures show "classic" signs of problems common to many guns.

The broken bolt/chipped frame; that picture looks like a classic M14/M1 Garand out of battery ignition (bolt not fully closed). Read some of the articles on OOB explosions in both M14 and M1 rifles which are commonly found in the American Rifleman magazine during the 1970s-1990s. The most common causes are high primers and not fully sized cases.

The picture of the broken barrel?

Classic indication of an overtorqued barrel.

Common during the early 1980s (S&W revolvers) and early '90s (Ruger revolvers). When S&W switched to their "crush fit" barrels they apparently had some timing issues, and (according to popular rumour), Ruger had an employee who "knew better" than the engineers...

Did the guys who owned those guns notice whether the barrels were turned past center, or turn the not fully indexed barrels themselves?

 

[Pathfinder]

Lee Enfield,

Thanks for info about the OOB.

Pardon my lack of M14 Saavy.....So basically the Pin would of hit the primer before the bolt would of been fully locked up in the receiver, I still dont' understand how that really happens (free floating firing pin...?) ? So it partially locked up thus taking a chunk out of the lug recess in the receiver ?

As for the overtorqued barrels (index issues) Seems a lot the Norcs had that problem, The one I had seemed ok.

I will bet it is a reload issue - excess pressure :

1) The max load of IMR 4895 for the gas gun is MAXIMUM 43.4 grain in the lastest Hornady manual. This is cross referenced in other sources that limit it to 43 grains.

Would one not be able to use Hogdon's latest Data or should it only be used for Bolt action Rifles (or other actions aside from Semi-Auto) ?

Ill paste from Hogdon - 42.6 to start and 47.3 as max






Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 42.6 2631 42,300 PSI 47.3C 2920 57,700 PSI

 

[Savage]

It was supposed to say this
True and I know the answer Zero .Reloads may contribute but in all likely hood the majority Ka booms are a result of poor workmanship or poor materials this includes both the factory ammunition and rifle manufacturing processes

I would disagree. Catastrophic failures of any sort involving modern firearms are rare. And when they occur it is usually the cartridge case that has failed.

This is true I have seen many pictures of Catastrophic Failures and have seen the results of a Catastrophic failure and have witnessed a Catastrophic failure and all were directly related to using Factory loaded ammunition I have only seen two incidents that I can recall that where reloaded ammunition was a factor .I have seen many photos of Catastrophic failure that were a result of poor or substandard manufacturing processes as well.

With the sheared upper part of the lug seat, it does look as if this rifle fired when it was not properly locked, although the left hand lug and its abutment look normal. First thing to do should be to carefully inspect recovered cases, and tear down and examine unfired rounds from the same batch. Any proud primers?

The photos are not that clear to indicate the extent of the damage. As for the inspection of the cases you are correct but one should also look at the unfired cases

What cases were used? .308 or 7.62mm? Fired how many times? Fired from new in this rifle, fired in others, range pickups? What was the headspace situation of the rifle? Were cases fired in the rifle ever gauged? What was the head space situation of the rifle with respect to these particular handloads? Were the cases sized by running the shell holder against the bottom of the die? Any signs of incipient separations in the recovered cases, or broken down reloads?

There are differences in in the OAL [Over All Length] in the brass case's between 7.62mm and .308 which many refuse to believe exists there are those on this board that profess there is no dimensional problems exist and that it is safe to shoot .

It has been long understood that reloading for M-1 and M-14 type rifles (and AG42b and other semi auto rifles) isn't the same as loading for a bolt action rifle.

You are correct and with all semiautomatic rifles one must be more vigilant in the processes he uses in reloading a Semi Automatic firearm.There are many on this Site that profess only neck sizing is required but the minimum required is full length resizing . A Semi Auto rifle pulls the empty case out of the chamber and stretches the casing . I personally use Small Base resizing dies for reloading any of my Semi auto rifles the brass is put back to minimal dimensions which greatly reduces the chance of of having out of dimension cases but greatly shortens the case life small trade off BTW I get about 8-10 cycles with the brass and I check OAL every 2nd time thru.

 

[Savage]

The picture of the broken barrel?

Classic indication of an overtorqued barrel.

Not entirely true there have been many reported cases where barrels or other parts have been recalled due to poor metallurgical qualities of the steel wrong amount of additives or chemicals that are required for that grade of steel . As well as a machining process may have been poorly done due to a dull or broken tool bit or simply missed altogether

 

[Janeau]

You cannot use standard .308 load data for gas gun. Pressure curve are different on gas gun of Garand, M14 type. You must use Service Rifle data for those or manual about the Garand and M14. That 44 grain load of IMR 4895 was over the board for this M14. I do not say there is not a problem with the gun, but I doupt it. This is an over pressure blow out.

Reloading for the AR is also different. Some technique used on Bolt gun brass should not be used for AR.

There is excellent books about reloading for gas gun. I can recommend Black Magic for AR type and Precision Shooting ( reloading guide) for M14, Garand type. This last one explain the difference. For data, the lasted Sierra, Hornady manual has reloading data for gas gun.

Lee Enfield,

Thanks for info about the OOB.

Pardon my lack of M14 Saavy.....So basically the Pin would of hit the primer before the bolt would of been fully locked up in the receiver, I still dont' understand how that really happens (free floating firing pin...?) ? So it partially locked up thus taking a chunk out of the lug recess in the receiver ?

As for the overtorqued barrels (index issues) Seems a lot the Norcs had that problem, The one I had seemed ok.




Would one not be able to use Hogdon's latest Data or should it only be used for Bolt action Rifles (or other actions aside from Semi-Auto) ?

Ill paste from Hogdon - 42.6 to start and 47.3 as max






Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 42.6 2631 42,300 PSI 47.3C 2920 57,700 PSI

 

[Drewz]

So to run a bit more powder charge to get more accuracy or run a heavier bullet isn't advised for this gun?? So is the gun just built for shooting volume and not handloaded "hot" loads?? I am getting into reloading of my 7.62 and really ned to know this type of info. I understand most military guns are for volume shooting, so does that mean they are built a bit too light at the receiver/barrel mating for heavier loads??

 

[Pathfinder]

You cannot use standard .308 load data for gas gun. Pressure curve are different on gas gun of Garand, M14 type. You must use Service Rifle data for those or manual about the Garand and M14. That 44 grain load of IMR 4895 was over the board for this M14. I do not say there is not a problem with the gun, but I doupt it. This is an over pressure blow out.

Reloading for the AR is also different. Some technique used on Bolt gun brass should not be used for AR.

There is excellent books about reloading for gas gun. I can recommend Black Magic for AR type and Precision Shooting ( reloading guide) for M14, Garand type. This last one explain the difference. For data, the lasted Sierra, Hornady manual has reloading data for gas gun.

If what you say is true than using factory .308 win ammunition in M-14's would have ruined many gas guns, if you check the velocity on factory ammunition, the velocity indicates the same (or near) as a max load from my sources. (150's around 2800 fps)

I know that a gas gun as to be loaded in order to regulate the gas system, I thought this was for operational cycling / feeding reliability, not a safeguard against blowing up the rifle ? I noticed this when working up a load for a Browning BAR (ok, not a service rifle).

Dogleg's gun was feeding and cycling well for many rounds before the incident with no signs of High pressure on the primer / brass.

I still dont' think that 44 gr. of the stated powder would caused the case to fail all on its own as the brass can very well take it (taking for granted that the case is in good shape).

The high primer OOB theory is much more plausible.

 

[Brobee]

You cannot use standard .308 load data for gas gun. Pressure curve are different on gas gun of Garand, M14 type. You must use Service Rifle data for those or manual about the Garand and M14. That 44 grain load of IMR 4895 was over the board for this M14. I do not say there is not a problem with the gun, but I doupt it. This is an over pressure blow out.

Reloading for the AR is also different. Some technique used on Bolt gun brass should not be used for AR.

My personal experience would disagree with this. I've used 44gr of H4895 pushing a 155gr Sierra Palma Match bullet for years now....many thousands and thousands of rounds through several of my M14s guns with nary an incident. By comparison with regular 7.62 nato (both hirt and SA) loaded ammo and wincheter whitebox 147gr FMJ cannon fodder, the measured velocity of my handloads is slightly less and the felt recoil imparted from the operating rod bashing the front end of the receiver is also slightly less.

The receiver damage illustrated in the photograph strongly suggests to me that the bolt was not in complete battery when the rifle was fired. There are lots and lots and lots of pitfalls when loading for the M14 that can cause this....my recommendation would be for anyone loading for an M14 type rifle seek out (ie: google and download) Glen Zediker's excellent article titled "Reloading for the Match M14". While his treatment on projectiles is more related to 168 gr bullets, he has a thorough treatment on several specific steps of brass handling and preparation as potential mitigative measures for out-of-battery explosions. Some of these have been covered in this thread already (ie: recess primer pocket to seat primer low), others have not (ie: his safety rational for small-base full length resizing and why a tightly headspaced gun must have the chamber scrubbed after every range session).

Brobee

 

[Lee Enfield]

You cannot use standard .308 load data for gas gun. Pressure curve are different on gas gun of Garand, M14 type. You must use Service Rifle data for those or manual about the Garand and M14. That 44 grain load of IMR 4895 was over the board for this M14. I do not say there is not a problem with the gun, but I doupt it. This is an over pressure blow out.

Reloading for the AR is also different. Some technique used on Bolt gun brass should not be used for AR.

There is excellent books about reloading for gas gun. I can recommend Black Magic for AR type and Precision Shooting ( reloading guide) for M14, Garand type. This last one explain the difference. For data, the lasted Sierra, Hornady manual has reloading data for gas gun.

Sorry, have to strongly disagree, an overpressure problem would have locked the gun closed, possibly deforming the lugs on the bolt. The illustrated partially opened action & chip on the top of the receiver lug is classic "out of battery".

Also, 4895 happens to be one of the powders which the M1 & M14 gas systems were designed around. The pressure curve (burn & propagation rates ect> ie. big words I don't actually understand) is (near) perfect for these guns (again assuming a nominally 150g-@165g bullet).

 

[scanner]

It would be nice if Norinco would make 7.62 Nato ammo with an accurate load designed for their own M14. With the proper primmers, brass length, etc, etc. Then ship it here to Canada for our retailers to sell to us.

Too much to ask for, I guess?

 

[Drewz]

It would be nice if Norinco would make 7.62 Nato ammo with an accurate load designed for their own M14. With the proper primmers, brass length, etc, etc. Then ship it here to Canada for our retailers to sell to us.

Too much to ask for, I guess?

Now that would be a wet dream come true!!