accuracy vs bullet performance

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sundance1972

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how much accuracy are you willing to sacrifice in order to use a "premium" (for lack of a better word)hunting bullet?

using my 300 weatherby vanguard as an example, the most accurate bullet i have tested (so far) is the 180gr nosler ct ballistic silvertip(1/2" 3-shot groups at 100), yet from research on this site and others it is not generally recommended for the velocities i'm loading them up to(separation and fragmenting issues at high speed impact) the barnes tsx also shoots fairly well, average is around an inch, and the accubond about the same.

like i said, this is just an example in one of my rifles , i'm really quite impressed with how well my "welfare weatherby" (as some a-hole at the range called it!!) shoots, just wondering what others would call an "acceptable" accuracy loss in a 3-shot group at 100
 
A hunting rifle doesn't have to have sub moa. If it shoots 3in groups at 100 yrds it would be fine. If your a benchrest nut then thats different but there is no advanatge in your case between a 1 in or 1/2 in group for hunting. Ask yourself how well you can shoot. See how your groups are at 100yrds offhand ;)

Cheers

Seabass
 
If you lose accuracy when using a "premium" bullet, your rifle doesn't like that bullet/ load.
"...some a-hole at the range..." Likely can't afford to shoot a Weatherby cartridge.
 
Seabass said:
A hunting rifle doesn't have to have sub moa. If it shoots 3in groups at 100 yrds it would be fine. If your a benchrest nut then thats different but there is no advanatge in your case between a 1 in or 1/2 in group for hunting. Ask yourself how well you can shoot. See how your groups are at 100yrds offhand ;)

Cheers

Seabass
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no offense intended, but a 3" group would be totally unacceptable in my opinion, unless i was limited to 100 yard shots(or less) in the area i was hunting. most of the places i go, the range can be anywhere from 10-1000 yards ( at this point in time i'm comfortable and confident out to 400, with a decent rest), so i treat every one of my hunting rifles as if it were a benchrest rifle.
as for the offhand groups, i probably don't want to know!!:D
 
Seabass said:
If it shoots 3in groups at 100 yrds it would be fine.
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For a 30-30 that would be OK. It would be a non-starter in a .300 WTB.

A 3 MOA group with a 450 - 500 yard rifle is defiantly not acceptable. A 14" "group" at 450 yards would defiantly result in a shot falling into the "poke & hope" category.

I know I personally would not hunt with a rifle with more than a 4 inch dispersion at the MAXIMUM range I might expect a shot to be taken at. With a rifle like the 300 WTB any given load better shoot MOA or very-very close to it. .
 
Giving up accuracy to use a premium bullet often hasn't proven to be necessary for me even in the distant past. It should be less necessary today as has already been mentioned. In fact, sometimes it has been hard to tell the difference between hunting bullets and target bullets during the testing I have done over the past few years. The quality is really there in what is produced today imho. I do recall giving up a bit of accuracy to use Barnes X years ago, but my rifle still shot just over one moa. I wouldn't consider using anything but a premium bullet when hunting either. In my experience, meat loss is too severe using bullets that open up in other than a well-controlled way or the bullet can fail and wound game. I've only experienced the latter once that I could directly verify, but once is enough.
 
Nobody gave ranges for moa so the standard 100 yrds I said a 3 in group (which 90% of my game been taken at) would work fine. Of course there are cartridges/rifles that are capble of shooting far better (3in @100yrds) and there is no reason not to use the most accurate rifle, espeally if you take shots at 200-1000yrds like some pros here do. Most of my game is off hand shooting, so my point wasen't so much the rifle shooting 1/2 or 3 or 14in groups but rather the shooter;) I would love to meet some people here who claim to be a good shot and to see what you can do in real life.:cool: We have a 600 yrd range at my club and most guys there just set up paper at 100yrds some at 200yrds. But everyone says they shot at the 600yrd range!!

Cheers

Seabass
 
I generally give up very little. I can usually get btips to group a bit better than the TSX, accubond, partition or now Etip, but the difference isnt significant enough to ever shoot a ballistic tip at anything when launched at 3200 fps...it would be very messy
 
Seabass said:
Nobody gave ranges for moa so the standard 100 yrds I said a 3 in group (which 90% of my game been taken at) would work fine. Of course there are cartridges/rifles that are capble of shooting far better (3in @100yrds) and there is no reason not to use the most accurate rifle, espeally if you take shots at 200-1000yrds like some pros here do. Most of my game is off hand shooting, so my point wasen't so much the rifle shooting 1/2 or 3 or 14in groups but rather the shooter;) I would love to meet some people here who claim to be a good shot and to see what you can do in real life.:cool: We have a 600 yrd range at my club and most guys there just set up paper at 100yrds some at 200yrds. But everyone says they shot at the 600yrd range!!

Cheers

Seabass
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It's probably true that most game has been shot with 3 inch rifles or worse. Look at the average 30/30 many hunters have used over the years. But, as you say, a more accurate rifle isn't hard to find, and more accurate is better. The desirability of more accuracy is probably especially true when shooting off hand, where it would be nice to have a little more margin for error. Most of my initial testing for hunting is done at 100 and/or 200 meters until I select a load. But, I then test out to 400 or 500 meters in steps of 50 and 100 meters to verify what the ballistics tables are telling me about bullet performance. (They only agree sometimes and then roughly in my experience.) Can't recall having to shoot that far though, except once with a animal wounded by someone else. One rule for me is to look for something to lean on when I'm going to take a shot too. Things go better that way :D.
As an aside, I have rifles in my stable that will shoot out to 500 or 600 meters with more than enough power to take down a moose or elk. But I don't do it, except under the aforementioned circumstance. I have to admit that I feel people are doing something wrong when I hear them talking about doing it. It's a tough ethical and moral argument, I know. Where does one draw the line? But I'm more impressed by the reasons one shouldn't do it. Hope I haven't wandered too far off topic here.
 
BCFred said:
It's probably true that most game has been shot with 3 inch rifles or worse. Look at the average 30/30 many hunters have used over the years. But, as you say, a more accurate rifle isn't hard to find, and more accurate is better. The desirability of more accuracy is probably especially true when shooting off hand, where it would be nice to have a little more margin for error. Most of my initial testing for hunting is done at 100 and/or 200 meters until I select a load. But, I then test out to 400 or 500 meters in steps of 50 and 100 meters to verify what the ballistics tables are telling me about bullet performance. (They only agree sometimes and then roughly in my experience.) Can't recall having to shoot that far though, except once with a animal wounded by someone else. One rule for me is to look for something to lean on when I'm going to take a shot too. Things go better that way :D.
As an aside, I have rifles in my stable that will shoot out to 500 or 600 meters with more than enough power to take down a moose or elk. But I don't do it, except under the aforementioned circumstance. I have to admit that I feel people are doing something wrong when I hear them talking about doing it. It's a tough ethical and moral argument, I know. Where does one draw the line? But I'm more impressed by the reasons one shouldn't do it. Hope I haven't wandered too far off topic here.
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I agree with your post.

I should have said a 3in at 100yrds is fine...."in most cases" not for 200 + yrds and beyond.

I just get tired of the type of people who say they shot some animal at 500yrds and when I ask them how much hold over they had they say they didn't have any as "their" rifle is a flat shooting rifle, just point and shoot.. Good grief. Takes all kinds;)



Cheers

Seabass
 
I sometimes wonder why a shooter will agonize over a quarter inch one way or the other on group size, then sight in 2-3 inches high at 100 because 3 inches at the target doesn`t matter.
 
When I want to fool around with any rifle to see what it will do at that given day and of what I can shoot I load Match bullets with proven match powders for that cartridge.

Most hunting bullets will not shoot to this standard however I have seen a few of my rifles shoot soft bullets and shoot it well very close to match quality

In addition to this I have had very good luck with the nosler accubond bullet in all of my calibers for accuracy.

To make a long story short, do not expect your hunting rig to perform like a match rig , accept the best accuracy you can acheive weather it be 1 Moa or 2 Moa and no your limits. I try to get 1.25 MOA out of most my hunting rigs with hunting bullets, but trust me it some times starts off in the minute of soft ball range and can be frustrating some bullets just do not like to fly. You will find that you will only accept the best at some point and you will feel it whan you sqeeze that sub MOA group out,

Good luck, you will find it
 
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JasonYuke said:
When I want to fool around with any rifle to see what it will do at that given day and of what I can shoot I load Match bullets with proven match powders for that cartridge.

With the 7mm rem mag i bought a few months ago, i started out the opposite way. After sighting in with factory ammo (which was actually quite impressive, 2 in one hole, 3rd 1/2"high) i started out with the "cheap" hornady spire points, then moved on to the accubonds. Both turned in pretty respectable groups. With a little more fine tuning, i think the accubond has the potential to group 1/2" or less, as long as i'm up to it. Not trying to put down your methods in any way, this is just the way i start out with a new gun. The nice part is that i know it can shoot factory loads well if i somehow lose my ammo on a trip away from home.

Anyway, guess i should've worded my original question a little better, this wasn't supposed to be about hunting ethics, or who can do what in real life situations, etc. All i was wanting to know is what others call an acceptale loss in accuracy to use the best bullet for the job. If your gun puts match bullets into 1/2" groups, what do you load hunting rounds to. Are you pesonally happy with 1-2" at 100yrds, or do you try tune them in as best as you possibly can?
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How well can you shoot from field positions? At what range can you place your shot in the kill zone of a big game animal? A MOA rifle doesn't turn a 4 MOA shooter into a MOA shooter, he will still shoot 4 MOA. Does 4 MOA sound horrible? Consider that if you are a 4 MOA shooter, your bullet will never land beyond of 2 inches of your POA at 100 yards. Most of us only wish we could place our first shot within 2" of our intended POI on demand in the field.

As stated above though, the longer the range the more accurate the rifle must be, but then the better a marksman you must be as well. Choose the load with consideration to the size of the game, the likely range of the shot, and your personal ability. Consider also that loads that shoot MOA at 100 might not hold MOA at long range, so be sure to prove the load at the range you intend to shoot prior to going afield.
 
Kind of forgot to start with factory ammo over the years like Sundance mentioned. It's a good idea as it allows you to measure the web expansion from factory loads and gives you another rough check on what the pressure is like with your reloads.
Following up on Boomers point about considering the species you are hunting and a variety of other things. If the kill zone is 8 inches in a deer and you have a 1 MOA rifle and using a hunting bullet adds another MOA then your group at 100 would be 2 inches (roughly), 4 inches at 200 and 6 inches at 300 and so on. Of course, things rarely work out this way in practice. The first problem is simply being sure your rifle is that accurate. It isn't enough to go to the range and shoot a 3 shot group. I'm not sure what the magic number is, but look at the conditions under which you shoot during hunting. You have no time to shoot in (target shooters do and you don't find them turning down sighters), your scope is generally 3X9 or so, there are no real aids to tell conditions and so on. At the very least you would want a rifle that puts the first shot in the same place on many separate days under different conditions. Superimposing all your first shots should yield a 2 MOA group or less. My 06 shoots consistently around 1.25 MOA and it will pass the above test at 100 and 200 meters from a bench. At 200 meters, back when I was testing all this, I would fail to keep all the shots within a 4 inch circle over repeated testing sometimes, mostly because I would misread conditions (remember I was starting cold under different conditions). OK the bullets were still doing quite a bit better than an 8 inch circle at 200 shooting from a rest. So, allowing for all the vagaries of shooting in the wilderness, that is my range for deer, when I have a good rest to shoot from, which, lets face it, is not always true. A change over about 0.75 MOA would be unacceptable unless I was going to shoot at 100 meters, because it would make it too easy to go outside the 8 inch kill zone at 200.
 
accuracy

Accuracy is everything in my opinion not only for the animals we ethicly hunt but for shooting confidence, if I had a rifle that would only shoot 3'' 100 yard groups I would question why the gun not been in the garbage by then or my shooting needs work, which sounds like some of you that would accept that kind of grouping. MOA groups or I keep looking for a load that will give me that, I have had no problems finding a load to give me 1''moa in all my rifles factory or custom the later I exspect 1/2''-1''.
 
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