Another Glock vs M&P thread!!
- Thread starter NorthernPF
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So what you're saying is the technique you use is unique to you. It applies only to you and is not universal in its application. Am I correct in saying you've acquired this skill on your own without the assistance of any professional school?(not that all skills offered by professional schools are viable) Would it be safe to say your technique is designed for gaming and has little if nothing to do with practical use?
I still don't see how keeping your gun oriented toward the next target is either faster or possible over other methods. If you are indeed behind cover(or simulated cover) you are not afforded the privilege of seeing your next target short of using a thick piece of ballistic glass for cover that is. If you keep the muzzle pointed down range, your pistol is either oriented with the magazine well facing the ground or perhaps it is rotated so the magazine well is parallel with the ground. In either case the pistol is not at chest or head level. Which means your eyes are now looking down at the pistol and no longer scanning for threats/targets.
The gain in speed you mention when ACQUIRING the next target is either substantial or minimal. Seeing how you reload from cover and do not have a visual on the next target, the direction of the muzzle has zero influence on the time in which it takes to acquire the next target. If the gain is very minimal, why not focus on ones ability to place shots rather than gaining small fractions of time during a reload. Only hits count and a fast reload is still not a hit. Maintaing accuracy and increasing ones speed are the meat and potatoes for winning a match or a gun fight. Reloading should be smooth and as fast as possible, no debate there. Focusing on increasing your reload speed is admitting or accepting that your marksmanship isn't up to the task or isn't viewed as a priority. All disciplines are scored based on hits.
TDC
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what you only own glock now? what is it you do with your pistol that you cant afford a failure?
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TDC..in case you didn't notice this thread is about a new shooter seeking info on Glock and M&P pistols.
Enough with the hijack.
Go way.
John
Enough with the hijack.
Go way.
John
They are both good pistols. The Glock has been around longer. Try before you buy.
If you had 4 shooters in the room there would be 4 different opinions on this topic.
Can someone please lock and sticky this thread so we don't have to see it every couple of months!!
If you had 4 shooters in the room there would be 4 different opinions on this topic.
Can someone please lock and sticky this thread so we don't have to see it every couple of months!!
So what you're saying is the technique you use is unique to you. It applies only to you and is not universal in its application.
No it is not unique to me, there are more than me who do this.
Am I correct in saying you've acquired this skill on your own without the assistance of any professional school?(not that all skills offered by professional schools are viable)
No
Would it be safe to say your technique is designed for gaming and has little if nothing to do with practical use?
No
I still don't see how keeping your gun oriented toward the next target is either faster or possible over other methods.
I am not surprised,
If you are indeed behind cover(or simulated cover) you are not afforded the privilege of seeing your next target short of using a thick piece of ballistic glass for cover that is.
Wrong, cllearly you don't know what you are talking about and no little of the sport. If you can get away from your latest Combat video you might want to do a little reseach on the two most popular action shooting sports before you start running off at the mouth with advice.
If you keep the muzzle pointed down range, your pistol is either oriented with the magazine well facing the ground or perhaps it is rotated so the magazine well is parallel with the ground. In either case the pistol is not at chest or head level.
Wrong
Which means your eyes are now looking down at the pistol and no longer scanning for threats/targets.
Looking down at the pistol???? You will have to make up a different conclusion. I know where the targets are and I am looking at the pistol.
The gain in speed you mention when ACQUIRING the next target is either substantial or minimal.
One or the other.... good guess one is right.
Seeing how you reload from cover and do not have a visual on the next target, the direction of the muzzle has zero influence on the time in which it takes to acquire the next target.
The first part is wrong, so is your conclsion.
If the gain is very minimal, why not focus on ones ability to place shots rather than gaining small fractions of time during a reload.
Why not just do both. when I seek your advice I'll do it by PM until then stand by....
Only hits count and a fast reload is still not a hit.
Really! Insightful that. Our scores are based upon time..you knew that...right?
Maintaining accuracy and increasing ones speed are the meat and potatoes for winning a match or a gun fight.
How many gun fight have been in? I haven't been in any so I wouldn't know.
Reloading should be smooth and as fast as possible, no debate there. Focusing on increasing your reload speed is admitting or accepting that your marksmanship isn't up to the task or isn't viewed as a priority. All disciplines are scored based on hits.
Some use time I think.....
Reading your posts do kill grey cells.
Take Care
Bob
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Good thread gone bad.
Yes this subject keeps showing up and will continue to do so. If this thread is stickied please remove the -too many- off topic posts.
John
They are both good pistols. The Glock has been around longer. Try before you buy.
If you had 4 shooters in the room there would be 4 different opinions on this topic.
Can someone please lock and sticky this thread so we don't have to see it every couple of months!!
Yes this subject keeps showing up and will continue to do so. If this thread is stickied please remove the -too many- off topic posts.
John
best post ever
IDPA rules stipulate that only 100% of the lower body and 50% of the upper body need to be behind cover during a reload, so you can still have visual reference to your next target while performing a reload.
.45 glocks have polygonal rifling as well, there was some talk back in the 90's that gaston was going to change it to a regular barrel but frankly his design works for jacketed bullets so he did not care, plus the aftermarket barrel makers stepped in and filled up the gap.
Again... IDPA does not require that reloads be done 100% behind cover... nor does the real world, keeping eyes on the threat is a valid tactical application, and the idpa reload mimics that.
For a new shooter I highly recommend both pistols, the learning curve on the M&P may be a little easier though because you can change the grip size but if a glock fits you then buy it, the aftermarket parts for the glock is huge.... the M&P not so big.
here is a much better video, and series of video outlining reloads and DPA shooting
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=roI_0LRpH7qQmkKcVa8X0Vt80ahwO0rX
the premise behind the tactical reload is that the shooter only has a finite number of rounds to expend, so in the "lull" of the fight the shooter tops off his weapon in order to have it running at full capacity "if" the fight picks up again.... and still retain any unfired rounds so they may be reloaded into the gun if needed, for example a magazine failure or you run out of ammo in your back up magazines.
in IDPA and most CCW application the shooter is only carrying a fully loaded gun and at most 2 spare maagzines, so a 1911 with 7 shot mags the shooter only has 21+1 in the spout..... say a glock with 10 rounders would have 30+1.... or if regular cap mag's (17 rnd)a glock could have 51+1 rounds
and an 8 round 1911 would have 24+1.most reloads in idpa are indeed "speed" reloads done from slide lock, at that time it is appropriate to dump the empty magazine on the ground, exactly as IPSC does it....
the tactical reload is only used when a shooter wants to top his gun up before engauging a moving target per se..... or in the classifier, it is a skill that a shooter should have in his tool chest.
eh Ive carried up to 10 mags plus 1 top off mag..I figure if I cant get it dont with that..time to go home.. plus theres more fun when your out shooting outdoors and its raining and you throw your mags into the mud pit and watch them sink ..
eh Ive carried up to 10 mags plus 1 top off mag..I figure if I cant get it dont with that..time to go home.. plus theres more fun when your out shooting outdoors and its raining and you throw your mags into the mud pit and watch them sink ..
I have heard of some IPSC stages in the USA being 60+ rounds.....
thats where IDPA and IPSC differ, a competitior in IDPA is only allowed 2 magazines on the belt and thats it, plus one in the gun and a round topped off for a canada legal total of 31 rounds.... revolvers are limited to 3 speed loaders on the belt plus a full gun for 24 rounds total.
IDPA limits course of fire stage design to 18 round maximum....
one thing people forget, IDPA is a sport... it is not real world training and should not be construed as such.... the tactical wannabe's can whine all they want how "IPSC/IDPA" will get you killed but the fact of the matter is shooters are out using thier guns, they are learning how to use the sights and shoot sighted fire..... that to me is more important, being comfortable with your gun and being able to aim and fire it under the stress of competition DOES translate well to being able to use your firearm in other instances.
we are chatting about reloads, after competing reloads become second nature, how can that be a bad thing.... no fumbling and you have muscle memory helping out.
I think one of the biggest things that the sport teaches, is familiarity with the gun, shooting on the move and safety.
I gotta get out there and try IDPA now
BINGO... IDPA is fun, I enjoy the social aspect of it and we have a good bunch of local guys who shoot it regualrly, for example from may 12th to october 30th we shoot EVERY tuesday.... its fun, without a lot of stress.
best post ever
IDPA rules stipulate that only 100% of the lower body and 50% of the upper body need to be behind cover during a reload, so you can still have visual reference to your next target while performing a reload.
.45 glocks have polygonal rifling as well, there was some talk back in the 90's that gaston was going to change it to a regular barrel but frankly his design works for jacketed bullets so he did not care, plus the aftermarket barrel makers stepped in and filled up the gap.
Again... IDPA does not require that reloads be done 100% behind cover... nor does the real world, keeping eyes on the threat is a valid tactical application, and the idpa reload mimics that.
For a new shooter I highly recommend both pistols, the learning curve on the M&P may be a little easier though because you can change the grip size but if a glock fits you then buy it, the aftermarket parts for the glock is huge.... the M&P not so big.
Thanks for providing some real information Westicle. Maybe I'm alone here but it looks like the requirement for a reload(according to IDPA) leaves plenty of body exposed to fire. I'd say the requirements are gaming oriented as opposed to practical for a defensive shoot. To each their own, somehow I don't think anyone in their right mind would expose any portion of their body when being shot at.
On a side note, how does one calculate 50% of an individuals upper torso???
Bob,
Thanks for failing to support your answers yet again.
TDC
So what is it TDC, in one post you ##### that loading behind cover is not "tactical" cause your taking your eyes off the threat, now your #####ing because people are not taking cover while reloading because it exposes them to "gunfire".... what is it, one or the other with you or do you just want to complain in general ??
HOLY f**k tdc, use your brain.... common sense would dictate what a person does in the "real" world as far how much cover or concealment they seek while doing a tactical reload...... if your stupid enough to think that one scenario or another will decide that you MUST do something this one way then your crazy.... do you want to get in a discussion now how the "shooting sports" don't use concrete barricades and that they improperly call concealment "cover".....
10 shooters can shoot an IDPA course of Fire and all 10 people can shoot that same course offire in 10 different ways, they can seek as much or as little cover within the rules as they like.... if one guy is comfortable ducking behind the cover fully to reload that is his option, if another guy feels that the threat is not returning immediate fire and he wants to keep his target in view while reloading then he can.
IDPA does not choreograph a shooters course of fire, some thought must go into how it is shot and each person has the choice to "game" the stage or shoot it tactically..... no one is going to begrudge them shooting it either way (unless of course you where there of course).
Ok, seriously... before I get any dumber reading your posts I will answer your next question.
How do you measure 50% of the upper body, well for a guy like you TDC we would have to make considerable effort since your head size takes up a good percentage of that..... lets review the rule book,
So the "cover" call is a very subjective matter and it depends on each safety officer to use his or her own discreation for calling a person for cover.... say a foot or a knee are exposed you would warn the shooter and they would have to pull that appendage back.... otherwise if they fired before retracting it to behind cover they would incur a penalty.
Tha basis in IDPA is for the calls to be fair and to not needlessly penalize a competitor, so plenty of warning is given.... the main thing here is consistency of the Safety Officer running the Course of fire, he has to call all the cover calls the same and apply the same fairness to all competitors.
no matter how much you critisize IDPA or the other shooting sports you have to realize that each sport is made by the decision of the shooter, not the course designers... every shooter has the option to shoot each stage as tactically sound or as unsound as he or she wants to, sure your not going to win any $0.12 cent certficate being the tactical GOD that you think you are, but in your own mind you will be able to go home and sleep soundly.
Why don't you contact joe tucker with ATHL and go start shooting some IDPA, learn some things that people in the real world do for fun with their firearms, or I hear you frequent TSE a bit, thier tactical shooting league shoots wendesday nights.... why not participate instead of being such a hard ass all the time.
seriously, reading your posts makes me stupider.... and that my friend is hard to do, but you do it remarkably well.
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