Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun
- Thread starter goosechsr
- Start date
Some premium for diff. model, however used model 12s sit on the shelf not sold, the Heavy Duck moniker only applied in the old days of lead shot for ducks, so they sit! Depending on condition, say $400 max....a bit more for solid or vent rib.IMHO
- Location
- Saskatchewan
I can't understand why old model 12's SIT instead of shoot! My 2 boys and I all shoot model 12's and use steel shot in them. Just have a competent gunsmith open the choke to modified, (about 0.020") and go kill some geese or ducks.
Turkeyslayer 1300
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Russell, Ontario
I would be a shame to modiy a Heavy Duck gun, a standard M12 fine but not a Heavy Duckgun.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
I shoot a couple of cases a year through mine, no damage to date....
Model 12 HDG
I bought mine to use ,not sit in a safe gathering dust. I had a smith open it to mod and plan to kill geese and ducks with it this fall. I'm not a collector or fancy conesiour ,I just appreciate the HDG , its history and what it was meant for in its he-day. Its the nostalgia behind it .....something like the auto-5 .....those guns were meant to hunt with and to do anything less is a dis - service in my mind. I could buy a new auto loader all camoedup but for me its being a part of history ....a passion. ( as fruity as that may sound )
Ian
I bought mine to use ,not sit in a safe gathering dust. I had a smith open it to mod and plan to kill geese and ducks with it this fall. I'm not a collector or fancy conesiour ,I just appreciate the HDG , its history and what it was meant for in its he-day. Its the nostalgia behind it .....something like the auto-5 .....those guns were meant to hunt with and to do anything less is a dis - service in my mind. I could buy a new auto loader all camoedup but for me its being a part of history ....a passion. ( as fruity as that may sound )
Ian
M12shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- East St. Paul, mb
Winchester made the 3 inch Heavy Duck Model 12 from the mid 1930's until the early 60's when factory production of all M12's ceased. Only about 35 thousand of the Heavy Ducks were produced in this time. Total production of all M12's combined was about 2 million.
If the shotgun here in question was in good to excellent shape and retained most of it's original bluing, it's value would be significantly more than the same with after market recoil pad, stock refinishing, re- bluing, etc. ...or just plain old years of hard hunting.
Also a gun with factory rib, 32 inch barrel or any type of factory ingraving would again significantly increase it's value as these would be very rare and in demand from a very select group.
My advise... if this M12 is in original condition...that is... with the correct red recoil pad, original bluing @ 90 percent or more, factory wood finish, lead plug in butt stock, etc... then I wouldn't give this gun away as so few original condition H.D.'s remain. It's value could be from 5-600 dollars to well over a thousand depending... and more so in the U.S. where there is greater market.
It has been said here that M 12's sit on the shelf which is not totally incorrect. Steel shot has rendered this fine water fowling shotgun obsolete as they were not built to shoot steel...especially the nickel steel M12's manufactured before the depression of the 1930's.
Yes with a more open choke and steel pellets no larger than say 3's or 4's one can "get away" with shooting steel for years with little or no visible damage. This is not recommended though...especially with the more "collectible" M12's.
I have a locker full or M12's and "cut my teeth" shotgunning ducks and upland birds with them. In my opinion they are the greatest pump action shotgun ever built. Shear quality and complexity of manufacture killed the Winchester Model 12 as they often lasted more than a lifetime. The numbers of M12's still in active use today is evidence of this. I too do shoot steel shot through a couple "modified" M12's and kill my share of northern ducks with these. If I couldn't carry a model 12, I would stop bird hunting completely!
Ted
If the shotgun here in question was in good to excellent shape and retained most of it's original bluing, it's value would be significantly more than the same with after market recoil pad, stock refinishing, re- bluing, etc. ...or just plain old years of hard hunting.
Also a gun with factory rib, 32 inch barrel or any type of factory ingraving would again significantly increase it's value as these would be very rare and in demand from a very select group.
My advise... if this M12 is in original condition...that is... with the correct red recoil pad, original bluing @ 90 percent or more, factory wood finish, lead plug in butt stock, etc... then I wouldn't give this gun away as so few original condition H.D.'s remain. It's value could be from 5-600 dollars to well over a thousand depending... and more so in the U.S. where there is greater market.
It has been said here that M 12's sit on the shelf which is not totally incorrect. Steel shot has rendered this fine water fowling shotgun obsolete as they were not built to shoot steel...especially the nickel steel M12's manufactured before the depression of the 1930's.
Yes with a more open choke and steel pellets no larger than say 3's or 4's one can "get away" with shooting steel for years with little or no visible damage. This is not recommended though...especially with the more "collectible" M12's.
I have a locker full or M12's and "cut my teeth" shotgunning ducks and upland birds with them. In my opinion they are the greatest pump action shotgun ever built. Shear quality and complexity of manufacture killed the Winchester Model 12 as they often lasted more than a lifetime. The numbers of M12's still in active use today is evidence of this. I too do shoot steel shot through a couple "modified" M12's and kill my share of northern ducks with these. If I couldn't carry a model 12, I would stop bird hunting completely!
Ted
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I agree with what Ted has said. I too have a locker full of Model 12's, including two Heavy Duck M12's that are 90% original, if not better.
A Model 12 HD in 90% original condition with the correct 1922 Pat. recoil pad and I stress original; is worth $750 to $850 and could fetch over $1000 in the USA and $1250 with an original solid rib. There was a few made with VR and checkered and pistol gripped stocks with fancy forends that'll go considerably higher or what the market will bear. I wouldn't sell my two for no $850. Not a chance.
Ones with after market pads, rust pitted, worn off bluing or reblues, re-varnished or beat up stocks, droopy bolts and used up barrel adjustment.; those are worth $450. They're worth the sum of their parts. And the Model 12 HD uses next to none of the parts that the 2 3/4" M12 does. Maybe the screws and that's about it. The rest is special to the HD. Even the stock is special but the forend could inter-change.
Out of the Heavy Duck Guns manufactured, very few are still in 90% or better original condition. These guns were carried lots and shot lots. Sweaty hands, gloves, just plain wore off the bluing. Most were rode hard and put away wet and are now rust pitted and well worn. But being the grand ole gun they are; they're still able to be shot. The newest HD M12 is 46 years old and the oldest is 74 years old. They'll keep on shoot'n with broken, worn and even with some parts missing. Dang, I've been using these M12's since I was 12 years old. Still have the first pre-war I bought used.
There's one thing that'll ruin a Model 12 quicker than hard use, salt air, dampness and even corrosive primers and powder, and that's Ole Bubba. He can steal the sole out of them fine shotguns way quicker than Father Time.
Rod
A Model 12 HD in 90% original condition with the correct 1922 Pat. recoil pad and I stress original; is worth $750 to $850 and could fetch over $1000 in the USA and $1250 with an original solid rib. There was a few made with VR and checkered and pistol gripped stocks with fancy forends that'll go considerably higher or what the market will bear. I wouldn't sell my two for no $850. Not a chance.
Ones with after market pads, rust pitted, worn off bluing or reblues, re-varnished or beat up stocks, droopy bolts and used up barrel adjustment.; those are worth $450. They're worth the sum of their parts. And the Model 12 HD uses next to none of the parts that the 2 3/4" M12 does. Maybe the screws and that's about it. The rest is special to the HD. Even the stock is special but the forend could inter-change.
Out of the Heavy Duck Guns manufactured, very few are still in 90% or better original condition. These guns were carried lots and shot lots. Sweaty hands, gloves, just plain wore off the bluing. Most were rode hard and put away wet and are now rust pitted and well worn. But being the grand ole gun they are; they're still able to be shot. The newest HD M12 is 46 years old and the oldest is 74 years old. They'll keep on shoot'n with broken, worn and even with some parts missing. Dang, I've been using these M12's since I was 12 years old. Still have the first pre-war I bought used.
There's one thing that'll ruin a Model 12 quicker than hard use, salt air, dampness and even corrosive primers and powder, and that's Ole Bubba. He can steal the sole out of them fine shotguns way quicker than Father Time.
Rod
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All that being said about pricing is correct the fact is we in canada do not put the value into firearms like our American friends I have seen many nice Model 12's at gun shows including 3'' in the $300.00 -$450.99 range in fact a couple of weeks ago there was a nice 3''solid rib gun on EE sell for $475.00. As far as collector pieces unless they are something other than field grade guns even in 95% there value is low. I myself have had a love afair with model 12s since I was 10 I'm now 50 and I to have a gun room full of model 12s and hunt with them all the time. I have worked in gun shops for 30yrs gunsmithing and sales and have seen 1000s of model12s. s . That is my two cents worth. I would like to make a point on the pricing I have for sale a 1958 Model 12 WS1 All origianal skeet gun with solid rib US. Price $2,500.00 my price $1,200.00 cnd.
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Can't argue about the model 12's pedigree. I prefer the open-hammer version, the 1897, but that's just a personal preference.
Rob,
x2 on 99% of your thoughts. You should drop the "used up barrel adjustment" part, though. When the adjustment sleeve on a model 12 has been taken to the limit of adjustment (a process that takes 100 years on a M12 used only for hunting), there are 5 more sequentially offset adjustment sleeves available. In other words, those guns that people shun because they're shot loose, only need a $25 part to be good as new! Under normal conditions and average care, a model 12 can be expected to last 400 to 600 years.
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Straightshooter:
The reason I mentioned barrel adjustment location is: pre-64 Winchester guys consider this when making a decision to purchase or not to purchase. I've discussed M 12's with these guys, on numerous occassions, and this is always one of their important points. They value the position of barrel adjustment to be on the original 1st notch with the original adjustment sleeve. The 2nd notch is acceptable as long as it's with an original adj. sleeve. The original is #0 with more 6 ajustment sleeves, in 1/8" draw.
The receiver to receiver extension fit, on Model 12's, don't shoot loose, but wear loose from continual take down for whatever reason. In the early years, with limited transportation, the M12 would be taken down to fit in the leather mutton cases that were fashionable at the time. The mating surface between the receiver and receiver extension would wear loose and in need of take up. So the adjustment proces was employed. The Model 12 uses the same adjustment sleeves as the Model 1897.
Of the near 2 million M12's made, how many are still in excellent original condition? At the time, these guns were made to be used, and used they were. Excellent, original condition is more the exception than the rule; so premium prices will reflect this. Barrel adjustment position is important when determining value. . for example . . "This Model 12 is in excellent original condition with barrel adjustment still on the first notch" . .
Regards:
Rod
Yup, all true. I didn't pick up on the fact that you were commenting just from the serious collector's viewpoint. A new, never fired, or a minty example is, of course, worth more to a collector.
I wouldn't have added my comments, except that I felt that this particular comment might be misunderstood to mean that they lose half their value if found to be loose in the takedown mechanism (although, as you say, this is exactly the case for one that would otherwise be in original condition).
I wouldn't have added my comments, except that I felt that this particular comment might be misunderstood to mean that they lose half their value if found to be loose in the takedown mechanism (although, as you say, this is exactly the case for one that would otherwise be in original condition).
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Don't agree . . I have a 1897, from 1900-1901, a factory two-barrel set. The 26" IC barrel assembly was on the last notch of a regular (#0) adjustment sleeve. This I replaced with a #1 sleeve that was from a Model 12. It currently is in the 1st notch with a #1 adj. sleeve. Threads and size are the same. In fact, same part number . #3312 for regular. This was a T.C. Johnson patent.
Rod
