Strength of Lee Enfield #4 action

The No 4 was supposedly cheaper and stiffer, I don't know about stronger. The Indians made up new NoI receivers of stronger/more ductile steel when they made up their 7.62x51 versions. None of the other countries, to my knowledge or from what I've read anywhere have tried to convert them to 7.62x51.
There were lots of wildcats built on NoI actions in Australia to get around their laws in past years and a lot of enterprising gunsmiths used them as cheap donor actions until mausers and No4 rifles became prevalent. So take it from there.
 
No. 4 action is stronger.
Indian SMLE action used for 7.62 used more modern steel, and relaxed proof testing. Standard proof testing procedures would spring SMLE actions regardless of steel type.
 
I emailed Ellwood Epps last night. I was considering having my #4 re chambered to 303 Epps Improved. This is the reply I got this afternoon "
Unfortunately, the action on the No. 4 series of Lee-Enfield rifles is not strong enough to support the.303 Epps round. We can convert No. 1 Enfields and P-14 rifles to this calibre, but due to excessive chamber pressures, we do not convert the No. 4 rifles to the Epps round." Kinda makes me wonder ???
 
I know. But me thinks Times are a changing !!! I really don't know whats going on there. If a #4 can be rechambered into .308 why not a 303 Epps Improved ??? Maybe a legal thing !!! :(
 
got to go said:
"Unfortunately, the action on the No. 4 series of Lee-Enfield rifles is not strong enough to support the.303 Epps round. We can convert No. 1 Enfields and P-14 rifles to this calibre, but due to excessive chamber pressures, we do not convert the No. 4 rifles to the Epps round."
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I think you should ask to confirm. The No.1 Action is not strong enough to handle the 308Win, unless it is one of the new made 2A1 Rifles made in India. While the No.4 action was readily converted.

When shooting the Epps you can push it higher with a P14 rifle over a No.4 but its still strong enough with proper reloading procedure. IIRC, on the No.1 action before showing signs of excessive pressure you don't get much out of the Epps case, while you do get improvement on the No.4, and you get even more improvement with the P14. A 303 Epps load in a P14 is NOT safe in both the No. 4 and No.1 actions.

I think the person confused the action types.

Dimitri
 
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303 epps

I have a #4 rebarreled and rechambered to 35-303 Epps and it works fine.
! use the low end of 358 win.when reloading it.
Only trouble with it is that I use single rounds
 
Dimitri said:
I think you should ask to confirm. The No.1 Action is not strong enough to handle the 308Win, unless it is one of the new made 2A1 Rifles made in India. While the No.4 action was readily converted.

When shooting the Epps you can push it higher with a P14 rifle over a No.4 but its still strong enough with proper reloading procedure. IIRC, on the No.1 action before showing signs of excessive pressure you don't get much out of the Epps case, while you do get improvement on the No.4, and you get even more improvement with the P14. A 303 Epps load in a P14 is NOT safe in both the No. 4 and No.1 actions.

I think the person confused the action types.

Dimitri
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I was very clear as to what I wanted. I just don't think I would have confidence sending my rifle across the country to get something done when there is confusion on their part. I don't know what I would get back !!!
 
got to go said:
I was very clear as to what I wanted. I just don't think I would have confidence sending my rifle across the country to get something gone when there is confusion on their part. I don't know what I would get back !!!
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I meant give them a call and state the fact that the No.4 action is stronger then the No.1 Action and that you require clarification as to why they wont do a conversion on a No.4 action and if that is simply a mistake on their part to say the No.1 action which was proven unsuitable for conversion to 308Win due to it not being able to handle the stress of a modern loading is okay to convert but the stronger No.4 action is unsuitable.

Dimitri
 
You might drop a line to Steve Redgwell (.303british.com).

From his website:

When Mr Epps created his improved cartridge, he wanted it to be a simple chamber reaming with no other required alterations. He wanted to be able to fireform new cases using existing 303 British ammunition. He accomplished this handily, and began modifying rifles at his gun shop in Ontario, Canada.

At first, he "Eppsized" No 1s, No 4s and P-14s. He found however, that because the action strengths were different, loads developed in P-14s were dangerous to use in modified Lee Enfields. He preferred the P-14 action, and told anyone wanting their Lee Enfield reamed to 303 Epps not to expect the same velocities. Case life would still be vastly improved though.

He also warned customers not to use 303 Epps reloading recipes unless they could absolutely confirm that they were safe. He regularly gave owners of Lee Enfield conversions handouts for the proper load levels in their rifles. Since he talked with anyone getting this job done, Mr Epps was sure that the right reloading information was being distributed.

Author's Note - This was before the "sue for anything" days when people took responsibility for their own actions, unlike today, where if you can blame it on someone else, go ahead.

THE CARTRIDGE

Okay velocity chasers, you've been impatiently waiting to hear what this translates to in fps. These figures are for a 150 and 180 grain bullet respectively. These are shot from a No 4 Epps conversion. You should be able to squeeze a bit more velocity from a P14.

A standard 303 British versus the 303 Epps Improved

2700 fps versus 2865 fps (approx 5% improvement)
2440 fps versus 2650 fps (approx 8% improvement)
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Also from his website, "A Day at the Range with my Nº4 Epps"

Members of my gun club are used to seeing me with milsurps of various makes and calibres. It was completely normal then, to observe me at the firing line, hugging up to a No 4 cradled in its rest. Now let me say that a No 4 is nothing special, although there is something to be said for any rifle with unique lines and a full wrapped wooden stock...

...On the first day of the max loads Epps tests, the silly part of me was working overtime. Here's a rifle that looks like a standard No 4. Along side it are a couple of other "303s" that will be fired later on for other stages of the test. First however, I must ensure that the chrono is functioning properly. Grab rifle No 2, load up a few control rounds whose velocities are known, and fire them over the chrono. 2450 fps times five (+ or - a few fps) on the display means success and on to the fun.

"Princess Elizabeth" is the No 4 conversion that will provide the entertainment. Out of my green cartridge box I casually take five rounds and load them into the magazine. No one notices that fact that they look funny. To be fair, they're really not expecting anything out of the ordinary. I explain to the onlookers that I've loaded up some Hornady 150 grainers with a different powder load. Here's where the fun begins. Settle over the rest, make a bit of small talk, aim and fire...

There's an odd crack to the rifle on discharge. Slightly different to my ears than standard 303 British loads. The crowd doesn't notice though. As heads bounce back from the target to the display, some confusion reigns - 2834 fps...

...The first few shots were teasers. I really enjoyed the day, and yes, I did inform the others about the different cartridge. I showed them I was working up loads for the 303 Epps and explained what was expected. Even after all that, a couple of guys were unsure of the cartridge's safety. So, before you actually get to the recipes, a few observations.

1. Converted to 303 Epps, the No 4 kicks the same as when firing a commercially loaded 303 British cartridge.

2. Pressures conform to 49,000 PSI or less in the No 4, 58,000 PSI or less in the P-14 - so as not to put any undue stress on the actions (or me!)

3. Case stretch is less with the Epps improved than with a full power 303 British case....
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In light of this, it does seem odd that Epps didn't want to convert your Nº4, as they probably have more experience with this round than anyone else. I'd bounce their reply off Steve and see what he says.

:) Stuart
 
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