30.06 vs 300 Win mag?

Just to clarify a couple of things. The 30-06 has been made for a hundred plus years, made by every country that makes sporting rifles, made in every action ever devised for center fire rifle.
It stands to reason that there are a lot of weak actions out there, somewhere. The loading companies know this and keep the loaded ammunitin and the loading data down in pressure, as compared to a 308, 270 or the belted magnums. Thus, modern bolt 30-06 rifles can safely use more pressure.
The only comparisons I made was with the 30-06 and the 200 grain bullet. I stated that I had built my load up, using the Norma data. On the very slow burning Norma 205, I went .5 grain over their listed charge! Not really too daring.
Bob Hagel's chart had the EXACT same listing for the 200 grain bullet, as the Norma chart had. Norma used pressure testing and chronographing for all their charts.
So why are we getting taken apart for giving these loads?
Is it because with the Norma powder we get the 200 grain bullet going 2700, or better, velocity?
hard to figure out.
 
blargon said:
My view on the subject is, buy whatever you want. While the '06 will do whatever you need it to, if you want a .300WM, go get one.
Just don't try to make your '06 into a .300.;)
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Exactly. Nobody's ever going to badmouth the '06, but I KNOW I can safely wring 3000 fps with a 200 Accubond out of my Tikka .300 Mag, but I have yet to get over 2625 out of a 24" barreled P-Hale '06 with the same bullet max'd out in that gun. Pretty substantial difference. On the down side, that particular 300 Mag load kicks like hell and it was simply a workup/push thing. I don't ever plan on using it, not fun to bench shoot - that's what my .338-06 is for, heavy bullets to flatten 'em.
 
H4831 said:
Just to clarify a couple of things. The 30-06 has been made for a hundred plus years, made by every country that makes sporting rifles, made in every action ever devised for center fire rifle.
It stands to reason that there are a lot of weak actions out there, somewhere. The loading companies know this and keep the loaded ammunitin and the loading data down in pressure, as compared to a 308, 270 or the belted magnums. Thus, modern bolt 30-06 rifles can safely use more pressure.
The only comparisons I made was with the 30-06 and the 200 grain bullet. I stated that I had built my load up, using the Norma data. On the very slow burning Norma 205, I went .5 grain over their listed charge! Not really too daring.
Bob Hagel's chart had the EXACT same listing for the 200 grain bullet, as the Norma chart had. Norma used pressure testing and chronographing for all their charts.
So why are we getting taken apart for giving these loads?
Is it because with the Norma powder we get the 200 grain bullet going 2700, or better, velocity?
hard to figure out.
Click to expand...

It's just interesting discussion, and comparing new and old data. Lots of the old data found in manuals was compiled without ever having any sort of real pressure testing equipment. I recall several writers mentioning this. It seems that a few big companies that published manuals didn't even have proper pressure testing gear, and that is why some data has moved up or down in charge weight.

Norma doesn't make 205 anymore, and I don't know what Normas manual said back then about 204 but now days the data isn't even close to Hagels loads.


220gr N204 Max load

BH-54
No-50.9

200gr N204 Max load

BH-57
No-52

180gr N204 Max load

BH-58
No-54.3

150gr N204 Max load

BH-63
No-57.1


Incidentally, the max speed Norma lists for a 200gr bullet in the 30-06 is 2618fps. Most of their 300WM loads make about 2900fps, which seems appropriate.
 
H4831 said:
Just to clarify a couple of things. The 30-06 has been made for a hundred plus years, made by every country that makes sporting rifles, made in every action ever devised for center fire rifle.
It stands to reason that there are a lot of weak actions out there, somewhere. The loading companies know this and keep the loaded ammunitin and the loading data down in pressure, as compared to a 308, 270 or the belted magnums. Thus, modern bolt 30-06 rifles can safely use more pressure.
......
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I was going to mention in my last post that the 30-06 is only loaded to 49,000 CUP while other cases intended for "modern" rifles are loaded to 53,000 CUP. This does allow some room (if you own the right rifle), but noting like Hagel suggested.

N205 had nothing over the current Reloader series of powders. I looked on their website and they listed similar velocities to Hogdons.

My honest opinion is that the pressure didn't show in your rifle because of the boltface in your Husqvarna. Bolt faces designed like the Sako or Husqvarna don't have the large ejector of the Remington to illustrate high pressure which in turn misleads the shooter into thinking he is safe.
I made that mistake in a Sako chambered for 375 Wby.

If you don't believe me recreate the same load in a Remington...Then tell me what you see.
 
Gatehouse:

Thanks for sharing the information.

My 300 shoots the 200gr NP at 2810 fps with 71.2gr of H4831. I wouldn’t want to push it any further as the book max is 72gr.

Shooting and reloading is a hobby and a game to me. Safety must come first. I will be very upset if I find out someone shooting next to me at the bench is trying to break the world record.
 
Danny Boy said:
Gatehouse:

Thanks for sharing the information.

My 300 shoots the 200gr NP at 2810 fps with 71.2gr of H4831. I wouldn’t want to push it any further as the book max is 72gr.

Shooting and reloading is a hobby and a game to me. Safety must come first. I will be very upset if I find out someone shooting next to me at the bench is trying to break the world record.
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And that is all there really is to it- Make safe, accurate loads and be happy. If you want .300 performance, buy a.300...If you want more velocity, go to a 300 RUM or 30-378.

I personally don't see the attraction to attempting to make a cartridge perform like it's bigger cousin...We have a HUGE selection of rifles and cartridges these days. Decide on the performance you WANT and buy the appropriately chambered rifle....
 
Here's the deal as I see it. You tend to find .30/06 rifles with barrels from 20"-24" and the .300 Winchesters tend to have barrels 24"-26". If you prefer a short handy rifle the chemical energy that drives the bullet is converted to noise if the .300's barrel is short, without much velocity advantage over the '06. In this case a .30/06 or if light bullets are normally shot, even a .308 would be a better choice. If you intend to build a 35 pound long range rig with a 30" barrel, the .300 will give you an edge as the 220 gr MK will remain supersonic for 1250 yards compared to 1100 with the .30/06.

But lets assume for a minute that you have the choice between a .30/06 and a .300 that both produce optimum velocity and equal accuracy and that magically recoil is the same. If both rifles are sighted in for 200 yards, what advantage does the .300 really have, and more importantly, can anyone use this advantage in a typical game hunting scenario? Lets say for he sake of argument that both rounds are loaded with 200 gr Partitions at 2650 in the '06 and 2850 in the .300. You might disagree with the numbers compared to what happens in your own rifles, but the .300 is generally recognized as having a 200 fps advantage. The difference in trajectory at 300 yards is 1.7". You can't see 1.7" at 300 yards never mind make use of it when shooting at a live target under field conditions.
 
Boomer said:
But lets assume for a minute that you have the choice between a .30/06 and a .300 that both produce optimum velocity and equal accuracy and that magically recoil is the same. If both rifles are sighted in for 200 yards, what advantage does the .300 really have, and more importantly, can anyone use this advantage in a typical game hunting scenario? Lets say for he sake of argument that both rounds are loaded with 200 gr Partitions at 2650 in the '06 and 2850 in the .300. You might disagree with the numbers compared to what happens in your own rifles, but the .300 is generally recognized as having a 200 fps advantage. The difference in trajectory at 300 yards is 1.7". You can't see 1.7" at 300 yards never mind make use of it when shooting at a live target under field conditions.
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In your scenario within the given 200 yards, same bullet weight, BC, construction etc, the extra speed of 200-250 fps should give you a deep penetration on any large game like moose/elk. It can make a one hole vs two holes situation.

Another factor is confidence. While I can’t speak for other hunters, to me bring the right equipment to the hunt is very important.

I accept the principle that bullet placement is key but that is not the reason to bring a 25-06 to a moose hunt if I have a 300 or 338 available at home. On the other hand I wouldn’t want to bring a 300 to the deer hunt when 270 can do a perfect job. Just my $0.02.
 
Boomer said:
Short barrel or long, the extra case capacity of the 300 will drive a bullet faster than the 30-06 with the equal length barrel.

But lets assume for a minute that you have the choice between a .30/06 and a .300 that both produce optimum velocity and equal accuracy and that magically recoil is the same. If both rifles are sighted in for 200 yards, what advantage does the .300 really have, and more importantly, can anyone use this advantage in a typical game hunting scenario? Lets say for he sake of argument that both rounds are loaded with 200 gr Partitions at 2650 in the '06 and 2850 in the .300. You might disagree with the numbers compared to what happens in your own rifles, but the .300 is generally recognized as having a 200 fps advantage. The difference in trajectory at 300 yards is 1.7". You can't see 1.7" at 300 yards never mind make use of it when shooting at a live target under field conditions.
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Which is why I tell people if they want more "killing power" they should go up in bullet diameter rather than just increase speed. :)
 
Danny Boy said:
In your scenario within the given 200 yards, same bullet weight, BC, construction etc, the extra speed of 200-250 fps should give you a deep penetration on any large game like moose/elk. It can make a one hole vs two holes situation.

Another factor is confidence. While I can’t speak for other hunters, to me bring the right equipment to the hunt is very important.

I accept the principle that bullet placement is key but that is not the reason to bring a 25-06 to a moose hunt if I have a 300 or 338 available at home. On the other hand I wouldn’t want to bring a 300 to the deer hunt when 270 can do a perfect job. Just my $0.02.
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The difference in wound volume between two bullets of similar construction that impact on similar targets with a difference of 200 fps would be almost undetectable. As an example when I was testing bullets for my .375 Ultra, a 270 and a 300 gr X bullet penetrated exactly the same depth and produced exactly the same wound volume despite 200 fps difference in velocity. The additional weight of the heavier bullet made up the additional velocity of the lighter bullet and expansion of both bullets was the same at .72". If both bullets weighed the same, and the impact velocity was increased in one bullet by 200 fps, I doubt if you would see much difference in penetration as the faster bullet might expand slightly more equalizing penetration. If you need more power, like Gate says go bigger not faster.

I don't mind being over gunned, and I see nothing morally superior to taking game with a small bore when I have a medium. I don't mind shooting a .300, I just don't consider it an advantage over an '06. If I had been so inclined, I could have chosen my .30 caliber rifle the same way as I chose my .375; which was to marry a larger capacity case with a short barrel to get the long barrel ballistics of the smaller cartridge in a compact package. If the thought of a 6 pound 20" .300 Winchester makes your teeth hurt, it might be better to stick with an equally capable round that is less harsh to shoot.
 
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Gatehouse said:
And that is all there really is to it- Make safe, accurate loads and be happy. If you want .300 performance, buy a.300...If you want more velocity, go to a 300 RUM or 30-378.

I personally don't see the attraction to attempting to make a cartridge perform like it's bigger cousin...We have a HUGE selection of rifles and cartridges these days. Decide on the performance you WANT and buy the appropriately chambered rifle....
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I agree 100%......:eek::cool:
 
Boomer said:
Here's the deal as I see it. You tend to find .30/06 rifles with barrels from 20"-24" and the .300 Winchesters tend to have barrels 24"-26". If you prefer a short handy rifle the chemical energy that drives the bullet is converted to noise if the .300's barrel is short, without much velocity advantage over the '06. In this case a .30/06 or if light bullets are normally shot, even a .308 would be a better choice. If you intend to build a 35 pound long range rig with a 30" barrel, the .300 will give you an edge as the 220 gr MK will remain supersonic for 1250 yards compared to 1100 with the .30/06.

But lets assume for a minute that you have the choice between a .30/06 and a .300 that both produce optimum velocity and equal accuracy and that magically recoil is the same. If both rifles are sighted in for 200 yards, what advantage does the .300 really have, and more importantly, can anyone use this advantage in a typical game hunting scenario? Lets say for he sake of argument that both rounds are loaded with 200 gr Partitions at 2650 in the '06 and 2850 in the .300. You might disagree with the numbers compared to what happens in your own rifles, but the .300 is generally recognized as having a 200 fps advantage. The difference in trajectory at 300 yards is 1.7". You can't see 1.7" at 300 yards never mind make use of it when shooting at a live target under field conditions.
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Well said...Inside 300 yards, using the same bullet, I wouldn't spit twice for the difference between them.


From my (personal) experience of driving 200's at 2950fps (26" barrel) I zero my 300Win at 250yards. This can be done with the 30-06 as well, but the mid range (150yd) trajectories start to get a bit high....Which (depending on how you look at it) might buy the 300Win another 50 effective yards.

To my way of thinking 30 cal magnums are really all about small effective gains using heavy for caliber bullets.

When I select the 30-06 I use 180 grain bullets, but in all fairness I have more then one 30 cal rifle. Each is loaded with what (I feel) optimizes that caliber.
 
Boomer said:
The difference in wound volume between two bullets of similar construction that impact on similar targets with a difference of 200 fps would be almost undetectable. As an example when I was testing bullets for my .375 Ultra, a 270 and a 300 gr X bullet penetrated exactly the same depth and produced exactly the same wound volume despite 200 fps difference in velocity. The additional weight of the heavier bullet made up the additional velocity of the lighter bullet and expansion of both bullets was the same at .72". If both bullets weighed the same, and the impact velocity was increased in one bullet by 200 fps, I doubt if you would see much difference in penetration as the faster bullet might expand slightly more equalizing penetration. If you need more power, like Gate says go bigger not faster.
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There is no disagreement. That extra 200 fps means something to me and I don't have problem shooting a 300wm. I don't own any 30-06. :D
 
I've got both. The 30-06 was bought to be a packing around rifle that could go in the boggan without fear of damaging a better rifle (after one of my buddies rolled his snow machine while carrying my slung Ruger RSM 416 across his back and rolling around on it while he tried to get up). The 300 is a rebarrelled (maybe rebuilt is a better word) M70 Super Grade built by ATRS for long range hunting. IMHO both are perfectly capable of taking any North American game at ranges under 200 yards. In fact, you'd probably never know the difference in performance. Now, if you get outside 300 yards, you're going to see a difference in performance on bigger animals (elk and moose). Outside 600 and there is no comparison between the two.

I always swore that I would never own a 30-06 because they were just too damned versatile. I got around that logic, but for 98% of hunting situations that you'll find yourself in, the old 30-06 is still the best bet. That's why so many get sold every year.
 
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