.223 effective for humans but not deer

freezer filler said:
it seems as though many feel .223 would be inadequate , the minimum at best...i defineatly haven't had anyone say it would be their first choice, i will probably opt for .243 since it is readily available
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1-8 twist .223's are getting 100 grain pills
same size that takes down deer in .243 (not sure on how many deer have been shot with this caliber but at least a few)
same weight plus as fast or faster speed would not do the job??
 
NewInWestsyde said:
1-8 twist .223's are getting 100 grain pills
same size that takes down deer in .243 (not sure on how many deer have been shot with this caliber but at least a few)
same weight plus as fast or faster speed would not do the job??
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i thought 69gr were the heaviest for a .223...mini14 has a 1-9 twist though, would this make a big difference in accuracy?
 
freezer filler said:
i thought 69gr were the heaviest for a .223...mini14 has a 1-9 twist though, would this make a big difference in accuracy?
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You thought wrong. 100gr are available. I won't wade into this steamy pile of sh*t but I will ask this broad question. Will anyone in this thread or on this forum stand in front of my AR while I shoot them????No? The question has been answered.

TDC
 
Deers are animals their prime instinct is to survive, sure they will die but maybe 300-500yds deeper in the woods, unless you hit it right it will start running until it feels safer or cant go on

Now humans, when we usually get shot our prime instinct which is to survive too, won't tell us to run away we'll probably just hide, cry, scream for help, etc. We know that unless we're being chased we'll have to stay calm, try to stop the bleeding or just freak the f*ck out cause we're scared like theres no tomorrow....
 
Never had a deer move 50 ft with either a .222 or .223 or remain alive for 10 seconds........................Harold
 
I've had deer move more than 50 ft with solid chest shots with 270 and .50 muzzleloader. I had an 8 point buck run 70ft and jump a fence with a 45 calibre sabot through his lungs.
 
If there is a question, would it not be smart to move up? 223 is not legal in Alberta, it will work under right conditions but it is smarter to use "enough gun". We all want a quick & humain kill. This is, of course just MHO.
 
freezer filler said:
i do agree, i'm just trying to justify buying a mini14... kind of expensive for a plinker, which is what it would be if it's too small for deer as i doubt they have the accuracy for gopher
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Marginal round, marginal rifle(for deer). Why not use a cart/gun combo that is actually designed for activity you want to engage in?
 
Lazy Ike said:
Marginal round, marginal rifle(for deer). Why not use a cart/gun combo that is actually designed for activity you want to engage in?
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freezer filler said:
i just want a rifle that i am allowed to target practice with and possibly varmint hunt with that is also a suitable rifle for deer woods if i do decide to go rifle deer... it isn't that hard to fathom someone wanting a caliber with more than one use is it?:confused:
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i can't buy them all at once, i do agree that i should opt for a hunting rifle but i can't help but think what a dandy plinker a mini might be.:D
 
Boomer said:
The .223 fails as both a big game and as a military round, despite having been used with some success in both roles.

The reason it fails as a big game round is because the hunter must accept that his round will produce a humane kill only if he avoids frontal and quartering shots. I will grudgingly admit that the TSX and other mono-metal bullets have changed the rules, but for shots that require deep penetration, the jury is still out. Headshots are tricky and seldom called for in hunting scenarios, and when they fail, they fail badly.

We all know that the .223 has been used as the primary combat rifle cartridge in Western countries since the mid '60s. Yes, a soldier can carry more rounds of 5.56 per weight than 7.62, but since its adoption, the number of rounds required to kill a single enemy combatant has increased dramatically; thus it appears that if you are armed with a .223, you will need that extra ammo. There are those who will argue that this is a result of the soldier having the ability to use full auto fire, but I believe that is only part of the story. As a rule, the bad guys don't want to get killed so they hide behind cover they hope will stop a bullet. When shooting at someone who is not in the open, and the bullet must defeat intervening obstacles such as brick and mortar, concrete, wood, glass, or sheet metal, the .22 is at a disadvantage compared to what we have come to recognize as major calibers. If we consider the big picture though, 80% of combat fatalities are the result of large weapons: missiles, rockets, bombs, artillery, etc, and while I don't believe that this makes the rifle cartridge irrelevant, from the war planner's point of view it is a place where he might be tempted to save money. A soldier can be trained more quickly on a .223 based weapon system, the .223 weapons systems allow a single type of weapon to be used for a greater number of roles (main battle rifle, submachine gun, squad automatic rifle, sniper rifle etc) which previously required different firearms chambered for different cartridges and created a logistical problem. But if the problem is to simply choose a round that will take an enemy out of action with a single center torso hit, any of the full powered rounds from 6.5 to 8mm are better than the poodle shooter.
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Excellent post.
 
Boomer said:
The .223 fails as both a big game and as a military round, despite having been used with some success in both roles.

The reason it fails as a big game round is because the hunter must accept that his round will produce a humane kill only if he avoids frontal and quartering shots. I will grudgingly admit that the TSX and other mono-metal bullets have changed the rules, but for shots that require deep penetration, the jury is still out. Headshots are tricky and seldom called for in hunting scenarios, and when they fail, they fail badly.

We all know that the .223 has been used as the primary combat rifle cartridge in Western countries since the mid '60s. Yes, a soldier can carry more rounds of 5.56 per weight than 7.62, but since its adoption, the number of rounds required to kill a single enemy combatant has increased dramatically; thus it appears that if you are armed with a .223, you will need that extra ammo. There are those who will argue that this is a result of the soldier having the ability to use full auto fire, but I believe that is only part of the story. As a rule, the bad guys don't want to get killed so they hide behind cover they hope will stop a bullet. When shooting at someone who is not in the open, and the bullet must defeat intervening obstacles such as brick and mortar, concrete, wood, glass, or sheet metal, the .22 is at a disadvantage compared to what we have come to recognize as major calibers. If we consider the big picture though, 80% of combat fatalities are the result of large weapons: missiles, rockets, bombs, artillery, etc, and while I don't believe that this makes the rifle cartridge irrelevant, frm the war planner's point of view it is a place where he might be tempted to save money. A soldier can be trained more quickly on a .223 based weapon system, the .223 weapons systems allow a single type of weapon to be used for a greater number of roles (main battle rifle, submachine gun, squad automatic rifle, sniper rifle etc) which previously required odifferent firearms chambered for different cartridges and created a logistical problem. But if the problem is to simply choose a round that will take an enemy out of action with a single center torso hit, any of the full powered rounds from 6.5 to 8mm are better than the poodle shooter.
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I dunno, I can think of a LOT of people that have pretty good evidence to the contrary.
 
The 223 has not failed as a calibre. I can tell you first hand you put a partition or corelokt bullet (approx 60-70grain)down the pipe and it is a bucks nightmare. Remember shot placement is what counts. And 223 will deliver .....Oh yeah guys use 30-30 for moose and they work well to so don't under estimate the 223
 
5.56 is a prouven round on both deer and infantry, saying other wise is perptuating a myth that is alive since the us let 30.06 go
 
Living in Nunavut and the NWT for 17 years when my wife and I could take 10 caribou a year, racked up a lot of bullet performance data. I have used rounds from 22 Hornet to 450 Marlin, and most in between. The .223 was my wife's rifle for 5 years in Nunavut and we took a lot of caribou with it. With the right bullets penetration was excellent as was the wound channel out to 175 yards or so. Past this it required very accurate bullet placement as the wound channels became too narrow for quick kills on a hit on the margins of the kill zone.

The Barnes X bullets (53 grain) was the worst in this regard having enormous penetration but smaller wound channels. We had better luck with the 60 grain Nosler Partition, and the 64 grain Win Power Point.

With these bullets the 223 acted like a 75% 30-30. Similar penetration but with slightly smaller wound channels. In actuality it's more complex however as the first half of the wound channel is similar to the 30-30 and the second half about 50% of the size.

I became interested enough in this relationship to do a study in wet paper.

30-30top.jpg

The 30-30 is a Stevens 325 B shooting 8 of the outside ring of bullets which range from 125 pointed Sierras to 170 FN Hornady's. The 223 bullets at the center are the 64 Winchester Power Point (my favourite) and the 60 grain Nosler Partition. The only bullet with the core separation is a 358, 225 Sierra from a Norma Magnum that I also tested. Both the .223 and 30-30 bettered the Norma in penetration!
(The Norma however almost shredded the newsprint in two.). Point is the 223 with good bullets is a capable round when it's limitations are understood.

That being said when my wife became a bit more comfortable with shooting we moved up to the 6mm Rem in a Rem 600. The 6mm will do a bit more at 300 yards than what the 223 will do at 150 and is a fully capable round with many fewer restrictions to use.
 
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Thanks for the write up very interesting did you try shooting those cariboo with the same military harball that is being used by the military forces?

We can pick and choose the best available bullets for our intended purposes but military use fmj which does very little other than zip thru which is why it is illegal to hunt with it.

Yes up close it will transfer shock but push the shot distance out further it will not kill with authority no not ever...

The 223 is a marginal round no matter what the intended target is...
 
Nope..I wouldn't use hardball in any caliber. Even in my 450 Marlin I have tested some 450 grain FN Hardcasts that many Americans seem to have fallen in love with. On wet newsprint I can honestly say that 50" will not stop them even when faced with 8 Inch knotty spruce logs. However the wound channels are much less than the 223 with 64" PP.
Unless the brain is the target I see no use for this type of amazing penetration.

About 2 dozen caribou tell me that with good expanding bullets the 223 is pretty good out to 175 yards in the hands of a careful shot. Past that I wouldn't use it. Actually within that I wouldn't use it either as there are better choices. My own small caliber choice starts at 6.5, and 358 Norma is my all round caliber choice, though my wife's 6mm has made me a semi-believer.

However if someone shows up with a 223 and knows what they are doing I have no complaints.
 
Camp Cook said:
Thanks for the write up very interesting did you try shooting those cariboo with the same military harball that is being used by the military forces?

We can pick and choose the best available bullets for our intended purposes but military use fmj which does very little other than zip thru which is why it is illegal to hunt with it.

Yes up close it will transfer shock but push the shot distance out further it will not kill with authority no not ever...

The 223 is a marginal round no matter what the intended target is...
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FMJ is marginal no matter what round you use...
 
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