I was loading up some 185gr Speer GDHP for my .45 today,and encountered a problem. I'm loading 8.0 gr Unique,and the manual stated the mininum OAL to be 1.275. I seated one to that depth and tried it in the gun. When it came out, it was now 1.136. I thought maybe the bullet got pushed in while chambering,so I dropped another one at 1.275 into the barrel and dropped the slide. It also came out at 1.136. Is this going to raise pressures a significant amount? I know the bullets are being pushed in farther on subsequent chamberings too, so I guess I need to crimp a bit more firmly, although these were already crimped more than usual. Anyone else have an issue with this sort of thing?
.45 acp oal problem
- Thread starter xxclaro
- Start date
That seamed like a long oal so I had to find my speer manual. For 185 gr GD-HP it lists the min at 1.200 with a max of 1.275. For my loads I set the oal at 1.235. I like a good crimp as well. If you seat deeper that 1.20 the pressure will increase, how much I do not know, but it would be on the dangerous side.
canucklehead
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Just a side note - but you really shouldn't be dropping the slide on a loaded round while it's in your loading room. It's not really necessary, and loading a gun when you're not ready to shoot isn't a good idea at the best of times. Just pull the barrel and drop them in one by one, or get a case gauge.
But yes - pushing the bullets in WILL increase the pressure, but on .45 it's a pretty low pressure round to begin with. Might be okay - but I wouldn't risk it.
But yes - pushing the bullets in WILL increase the pressure, but on .45 it's a pretty low pressure round to begin with. Might be okay - but I wouldn't risk it.
Brush and inspect your chamber and bolt face for buildup of crud.
Primers seated flush or below?
Easy with the crimping - a light taper crimp is all that is necessary.
Shorter COL will not affect pressure as much as driving bullet into the lands, then firing. If everything checks out, then load shorter COL.
No ...... Wait...... You are crimping these things waaay more than is safe!!!! Because you are crimping too much, the case is being driven forward too far, until the bullet seats on the lands instead of on the case mouth. Quit that!
Back out your seating die body so that it doesn't crimp at all, and reset your seating depth to about 1.20 COL. Use a little less powder if you were at max.
When a bullet is dropped into the chamber, it should click when it hits the chamber shoulder with the case.
Soon, go and buy a taper crimp die, and live ever after. Happiness optional.
Primers seated flush or below?
Easy with the crimping - a light taper crimp is all that is necessary.
Shorter COL will not affect pressure as much as driving bullet into the lands, then firing. If everything checks out, then load shorter COL.
No ...... Wait...... You are crimping these things waaay more than is safe!!!! Because you are crimping too much, the case is being driven forward too far, until the bullet seats on the lands instead of on the case mouth. Quit that!
Back out your seating die body so that it doesn't crimp at all, and reset your seating depth to about 1.20 COL. Use a little less powder if you were at max.
When a bullet is dropped into the chamber, it should click when it hits the chamber shoulder with the case.
Soon, go and buy a taper crimp die, and live ever after. Happiness optional.
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canucklehead
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I think anchor has it right. That makes sense. Too much crimp will prevent the case from seating properly.
It does make sense,but I think it's not he case this time. I crimped just enough to remove the bell at first. I pulled all the bullets, then pulled the barrel from the pistol. I started the bullets seated it 1.60, and finally ended up at 1.15 before the round would sit down where it was supposed to. Even at 1.20,they would be a bit sticky when I tried to remove them after dropping them into the chamber. I loaded 30 rounds, and dropped each into the chamber. Most were fine,a couple wanted to stick a bit if I pushed them into the chamber, so I pushed them to 1.10,and then they are good. I'll shoot hem this week hopefully,see how they do.
Seating the bullet 50 thousandths deeper will increase pressure enough to drive a bullet about 50 fps faster. I checked my numbers on Clays and Bullseye to conclude that. The first 50 thou change likely has less effect than further changes, so don't do more than one change at a time.
Using a taper crimp die is a great improvement as it squeezes the cartridge to a size which will chamber freely every time.
Going to 1.10 COL is too radical unless a lesser charge is used.
At 1.10 COL, your case is likely crimping over the front shoulder on the bullet? This would make it drop in easily but is not proper.
Likely the cases are a bit distorted from pulling and such, and shooting will iron them out.
These are going to be hot loads - maybe dangerously so - having seated them so deep.
If they are chambering very deeply, the firing pin may not protrude enough to touch them off.
In most or all .45s, the seated case is to be flush with the rear surface of the barrel - Check this.
Doing a partial pull and then reseat to 1.20 is the redneck fix on jacketed , but until they have been shot and/or resized, they will not be ironed out perfectly.
Now with the hard-to-listen-to-old-guy-advice in one runny sentence.
Check if they seat flush with rear of barrel and if they go too deep, pull 'em again and size and barely bell them and trim the burrs from the outside of the case mouth and reload again and seat to 1.20 COL and shoot 'em and borrow a taper crimp die until you can find one to buy.
Sorry this got long and windy.
Using a taper crimp die is a great improvement as it squeezes the cartridge to a size which will chamber freely every time.
Going to 1.10 COL is too radical unless a lesser charge is used.
At 1.10 COL, your case is likely crimping over the front shoulder on the bullet? This would make it drop in easily but is not proper.
Likely the cases are a bit distorted from pulling and such, and shooting will iron them out.
These are going to be hot loads - maybe dangerously so - having seated them so deep.
If they are chambering very deeply, the firing pin may not protrude enough to touch them off.
In most or all .45s, the seated case is to be flush with the rear surface of the barrel - Check this.
Doing a partial pull and then reseat to 1.20 is the redneck fix on jacketed , but until they have been shot and/or resized, they will not be ironed out perfectly.
Now with the hard-to-listen-to-old-guy-advice in one runny sentence.
Check if they seat flush with rear of barrel and if they go too deep, pull 'em again and size and barely bell them and trim the burrs from the outside of the case mouth and reload again and seat to 1.20 COL and shoot 'em and borrow a taper crimp die until you can find one to buy.
Sorry this got long and windy.
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Anchor has some good advice...
You problem does sound strange. I've never had any setback issues in .45. My technique is to bell the case the bare minimum the bullet will go in, without crushing the case of course. The bullet should just balance on top of the case. That, and a tiny amout of crimp (barely touching), you should have a round that will hold the breech open instead of setback on chambering.
I load mine to an OAL of 1.225 minimum and they drop right in a LW glock barrel. 1.110 is a bit too short I think...
Like anchor said, make sure your chamber is clean too. Unless there is something dimensionally wrong with the barrel it will likely solve the issue (if indeed a factor at all that is).
You problem does sound strange. I've never had any setback issues in .45. My technique is to bell the case the bare minimum the bullet will go in, without crushing the case of course. The bullet should just balance on top of the case. That, and a tiny amout of crimp (barely touching), you should have a round that will hold the breech open instead of setback on chambering.
I load mine to an OAL of 1.225 minimum and they drop right in a LW glock barrel. 1.110 is a bit too short I think...
Like anchor said, make sure your chamber is clean too. Unless there is something dimensionally wrong with the barrel it will likely solve the issue (if indeed a factor at all that is).
I still don't understand how a properly seated bullet could get pushed in so much simply from chambering. Especially with a SWC, can you actually seat such a bullet far enough that it would sit on the lands?
That would have to be a very loose case and/or very dirty chamber.
edit: must've been confused, they aren't SWCs.
That would have to be a very loose case and/or very dirty chamber.
edit: must've been confused, they aren't SWCs.
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I'll go over them all again,see if I can figure this thing out. I did check them all in the barrel, to make sure they fit flush with the end of the barrel,and they do,once I seat them deep enough. I had pulled all the bullets and belled the cases a tiny bit,then reseated them. I also took a factory load and dropped it into the barrel,to see how far it sat down,and made sure my loads did the same. I'm going to try again tonight with some fresh cases, as Anchor may well be right about distortion. It seems to me that the extra wide and straight nose profile of the Gold Dot bullet is adding to the problem,as the 200gr XTP's I loaded gave me no trouble at all,seated to 1.190. Definitley will geta taper die, is the Lee Factory crimp die a taper die?
Yes it is.
Geeee - all this thinking is makin' my brain hurt.
Back to basics - do the bullets mike at proper size, and round?
Is there buildup at the front of the chamber - 50/50 mix of peroxide and vinegar will melt lead out - just plug the muzzle with an earplug and fill it up for two minutes, then scrub.
What kind of gun is it ? You've shot it for a long time - or just bought it? I wonder if it is a Frankengun with a GAP bored out to ACP or some other mix. (Not meaning any disrespect or anything - just wondering.)
Check your bolt face - and clean it - the firing pin isn't broken, and stuck out is it? Nawww - that isn't it.
Hmmmmmmmm - brain s h u t t i n g d o w n
Back to basics - do the bullets mike at proper size, and round?
Is there buildup at the front of the chamber - 50/50 mix of peroxide and vinegar will melt lead out - just plug the muzzle with an earplug and fill it up for two minutes, then scrub.
What kind of gun is it ? You've shot it for a long time - or just bought it? I wonder if it is a Frankengun with a GAP bored out to ACP or some other mix. (Not meaning any disrespect or anything - just wondering.)
Check your bolt face - and clean it - the firing pin isn't broken, and stuck out is it? Nawww - that isn't it.
Hmmmmmmmm - brain s h u t t i n g d o w n
HAHA, don't hurt yourself bro,we're gonna get through this! Seriously though, you guys are awesome, I've posted this on other dedicated 1911 forums,and got zip.
The gun is a Norinco 1911, only has about 60 rounds through it, no lead, and it's clean. The cases do seem to measure within spec, but I need to get my case comparator back from my buddy to see if maybe they're out of round.
Thereason I figured the bullet was engaging the rifling is that when the bullets where seated at 1.20, they wouldn't sit flush.so I pushed on them a bit. This caused them to be difficult to pull out of the barrel. Once I got them to 1.15,they sat flush,and even if I pushed on them,I could pull out easily. The ones that I seated to 1.10 showed a slight bit of stickiness when pushed on at 1.15,but none at 1.10. I think I may try to put someting on the nose of the bullet,to see if it has rifling marks left on it after dropping it into the chamber at 1.20.
Thanks again for all the advice guys, it is really appreciatted.
Okay - so I pull the barrel out of a Ruger p345 and measure the chamber - we could maybe easily find this stuff on the net, but this rifling starts at .10 from the chamber end, and tapers up until it is full depth rifling at .15 from the front of the chamber.
When I seat a 185 grain HP at 1.20 COL, I am sure ( from memory,) that there is less than 1/10th of an inch of full size bullet showing beyond the mouth of the case. More than 1/16, and less than 1/10th.
How much full size (.451/.452) bullet do you have protruding from the case?
This chamber is about .890 deep, plus .10 until the very start of the rifling, gives .990 to the beginning of the rifling, then another .050, gives a length of 1.04 from head of case to the full depth rifling.
I wonder if Norinco has less free bore as a rule.
I was wondering if the jacketed bullets themselves measured out at spec.
I really don't see a problem with seating them short if your gun requires it - but they will be smoking over the chronograph and wearing out cases if you don't lessen your charge. They might touch 1000 fps - but I have no experience with Unique - although we could look this up.
Notice where your cases land - compared to a factory load - if they ever do.
When I seat a 185 grain HP at 1.20 COL, I am sure ( from memory,) that there is less than 1/10th of an inch of full size bullet showing beyond the mouth of the case. More than 1/16, and less than 1/10th.
How much full size (.451/.452) bullet do you have protruding from the case?
This chamber is about .890 deep, plus .10 until the very start of the rifling, gives .990 to the beginning of the rifling, then another .050, gives a length of 1.04 from head of case to the full depth rifling.
I wonder if Norinco has less free bore as a rule.
I was wondering if the jacketed bullets themselves measured out at spec.
I really don't see a problem with seating them short if your gun requires it - but they will be smoking over the chronograph and wearing out cases if you don't lessen your charge. They might touch 1000 fps - but I have no experience with Unique - although we could look this up.
Notice where your cases land - compared to a factory load - if they ever do.
Hmm,just measured the chamber, it seems to be .746,close as I can measure it with my dial calipers.Also measured my loaded rounds,and you are correct,the bullet just above the case measure about .449,so it's definitley sitting pretty deep. I measured the case right at the top, and it is the same as my factory rounds. So,it seems I still don't know what the hell is going on. Maybe the gun just has a short chamber,and this bullet profile won't work?
Uhhh - drop a new bullet in the chamber and notice what the case head is level with on the barrel.
Measure from that point down to the shoulder in the chamber that the case rests on when chambered and it is .746" ? Okay - you measured from a different place.
Try measuring from the point on the barrel where the case head seats flush to the beginning of the rifling.
It is likely right for the chambering depth, but the rifling must be starting right at that same shoulder - can you see if this is the case? You should be able to see this just by the light of your monitor.
Those 185 HPs would be a very accurate bullet, and would put a neater hole in paper than say the RN profile that you may need to use until you get the free bore lengthened.
Measure from that point down to the shoulder in the chamber that the case rests on when chambered and it is .746" ? Okay - you measured from a different place.
Try measuring from the point on the barrel where the case head seats flush to the beginning of the rifling.
It is likely right for the chambering depth, but the rifling must be starting right at that same shoulder - can you see if this is the case? You should be able to see this just by the light of your monitor.
Those 185 HPs would be a very accurate bullet, and would put a neater hole in paper than say the RN profile that you may need to use until you get the free bore lengthened.
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Gotcha, I was measuring from the lower part of the barrel, not thinking straight. I'll try it again when Iget home today. I did notice that the rifling right after that shoulder does start right away,but it is kind of beveled for the first little bit.
Okay, remeasured the chamber, and it's .90,close as I can measure. I tried the whole thing again today with fresh brass,making up a couple of dummy rounds. What I did this time was to smoke the bullet with a lighter to see if the rifling marks would show. Sure enough, at 1.20, I can see rifling marks right at the base of the bullet. I find that I can seat the round fully by applying a bit of pressure with my thumb,even at 1.30. They come free with a little pop, so they definitley bind a bit,but not much. I'm worried now that all the bullets I've been casting up for this gun are not going to work either,as they're a wide flat nose bullet. Will a taper crimp die help at all here? I did find that crimping the rounds a bit heavier did help them to sit down a little easier.
Well Sir: It looks like you have diagnosed it as a special needs child. I identify with it - I 'specially needed a good whuppin' - and maybe a hug after.
You have no free bore ahead of your chamber - hmmmm - as I said, I have 1/10th of an inch.
I can't imagine being able to thumb-push one of my .45 bullets - loaded with RCBS dies and a Hornady taper crimp die - deeper into the case - but you really are not saying that are you? Do you mean that thumb pressure will engrave the rifling onto the bullet enough to seat the cartridge, yet not drive the bullet deeper into the case?
I've always had to wonder about the slide being able to push the bullet deeper into the case - especially if it tends to just engrave rifling marks from thumb pressure.
A taper crimp might help a little in two ways: Improved uniformity of the case mouth may centre things up better thus prevent sticking and it may prevent the bullet from being driven deeper.
A taper crimp will not resize the protruding bullet though.
I guess trying your new cast bullets will tell the tale better than we can imagine it. Flat nosed bullets make nice holes - How many have you? I'll trade some Lee 230 TLFP with you - they weigh at about 236 or so.
Loading your bullets short and use a lighter charge sounds like all you can do now. Maybe seating to the rifling will be more accurate.
I have no experience in feeding special needs children, but I think it takes patience.
I'd bet that there are lots of excellent used barrels that could be had for really cheap if you are not happy with yours.
You have no free bore ahead of your chamber - hmmmm - as I said, I have 1/10th of an inch.
I can't imagine being able to thumb-push one of my .45 bullets - loaded with RCBS dies and a Hornady taper crimp die - deeper into the case - but you really are not saying that are you? Do you mean that thumb pressure will engrave the rifling onto the bullet enough to seat the cartridge, yet not drive the bullet deeper into the case?
I've always had to wonder about the slide being able to push the bullet deeper into the case - especially if it tends to just engrave rifling marks from thumb pressure.
A taper crimp might help a little in two ways: Improved uniformity of the case mouth may centre things up better thus prevent sticking and it may prevent the bullet from being driven deeper.
A taper crimp will not resize the protruding bullet though.
I guess trying your new cast bullets will tell the tale better than we can imagine it. Flat nosed bullets make nice holes - How many have you? I'll trade some Lee 230 TLFP with you - they weigh at about 236 or so.
Loading your bullets short and use a lighter charge sounds like all you can do now. Maybe seating to the rifling will be more accurate.
I have no experience in feeding special needs children, but I think it takes patience.
I'd bet that there are lots of excellent used barrels that could be had for really cheap if you are not happy with yours.
