1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.
- Thread starter Clobbersauras
- Start date
TDC must have taken a different Fighting Pistol Course than I did...
If I recall, there were TWO glock failures and one 1911 failure on that course. Oddly enough, I used my Sig day one and my Operator day two... And it was not the 1911 that failed.
It always has and always will come down to the operator and how they keep thier gear. To say anything else is digital auto-erotica.
If I recall, there were TWO glock failures and one 1911 failure on that course. Oddly enough, I used my Sig day one and my Operator day two... And it was not the 1911 that failed.
It always has and always will come down to the operator and how they keep thier gear. To say anything else is digital auto-erotica.
BS, I witnessed your "operator" fail to go into battery twice while you did the cover drill from the barrels. Atleast one of the Glock failures was due to improperly mounted sights. The Glock wasn't out of action, just out of sights.
TDC
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is more a function of who he teaches and what they carry than anything else. I't kind of considered to be rude form to show up at a class where everyone is carrying pistols for the lowest common denominator (Glock) with a 2K custom "hand of God-type blaster" (cool guy 1911)...
blake
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is more a function of who he teaches and what they carry than anything else. I't kind of considered to be rude form to show up at a class where everyone is carrying pistols for the lowest common denominator (Glock) with a 2K custom "hand of God-type blaster" (cool guy 1911)...
blake
Even though he shoots the LCD pistol he still makes hits, so why the need for the 2K "look cool" pistol?
TDC
Heh, I am not the liar here, Matt. Not once did my Operator FTRB at the barrels, notice the little orange things come popping out the ejection port?
C'mon man, if you gotta justify your Glock purchase by manufacturer, not operator, fine knock yourself out. I've seen Glocks fail as often as any other firearm based upon per capita exposure. You are a critical thinker most times, why the hell are you drinking the kool-aid now?
By the way, I didn't see your scores for Sunday. What's up?
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Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Waaay out west.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is more a function of who he teaches and what they carry than anything else. I't kind of considered to be rude form to show up at a class where everyone is carrying pistols for the lowest common denominator (Glock) with a 2K custom "hand of God-type blaster" (cool guy 1911)...
blake
Full quote to clarify:
"I teach and shoot with a Glock 19 more than any other gun AND the Glock is by far the most common pistol I see in classes.”
So are you saying he is not carrying and shooting and teaching with it most because of his choice?
He said AND not BECAUSE.
I think you have me confused for someone else. I didn't shoot the ATHL match last Sunday. Oh and by the way, the individual in question failed to finish due to time constraints at another course of fire. Which from what I hear was later removed from the match.
I don't have to justify my purchase. I run Glocks because they're simple and reliable. Its you who runs two different systems in two different calibres. So do tell, why such a spread from the SIG to the 1911? Are you unsure as to what "looks cool" or are you lacking in a purpose for your toys?
TDC
IMO there's nothing wrong with trying different and seeing what works better or just to keep it fun.
I don't get this whole 'simple' thing; if you have proper training (which you claim you do) why is it such a big deal if a gun has a safety etc (which you don't even have to use). You think you may forget what to do in a high stress situation?
I don't get this whole 'simple' thing; if you have proper training (which you claim you do) why is it such a big deal if a gun has a safety etc (which you don't even have to use). You think you may forget what to do in a high stress situation?
The very fact that the 1911 is still in use as a combat pistol today, speaks volumes about its design and function. There are a lot of gadgets and gizmo's out there that people love to play with; but if you are in a foxhole covered in mud, you are not outgunned, or outclassed if you have a basic 1911 in your hand. (ancient is not always bad, thats why you still carry a F*ing bayonet)
Keep in mind though that in most combat the 1911 is used with 230 gr FMJ [ball] ammo. As it was originally designed for. Not a bad "stopper" but certainly helps with reliability of function. And keeping the reputation alive.
NAA.
You're right, there's nothing wrong with trying different systems. After you've sampled the field and logically decided which one suits your needs, ditch the rest. From an economic standpoint it only makes sense to minimize ones investment in equipment, especially equipment you don't use.
You're right again, the potential to forget a manual/positive safety when under stress is a very real possibility. Of course with training the potential is greatly reduced(provided you train regularly). The other concern with manual safeties is ones ability to engage/disengage with the support side hand, a gloved hand, bloody hand, wet hand. Why complicate the system anymore than is necessary? Safety devices are insurance policies in the event the operator loses control of the firearm, they are not intended and should not be intended to prevent the operator from rapidly deploying the firearm.
I've seen most 1911 users draw from the holster, FLINCH, then realize they failed to drop the thumb safety. Is this a training issue? For sure. Could this have been avoided with other designs? Definitely. DA/SA pistols are close to perfection(sorry, had to throw the Glock Kool-aid in there) but still require the operator to decock prior to holstering. Operating the decocker in some circumstances may be difficult or near impossible and the potential to forget and holster a hot hammer cocked pistol is a constant concern.
DAO pistols with exposed hammers eliminate this issue but bring their own with their often long and heavy trigger pulls. Striker fired pistols like the Glock give the shooter the best of all worlds. Short and light trigger pull, DAO safety(amongst the other two safety devices), no external positive controls to fail or forget and point and pull simplicity. Coupled with their extremely low part count, low bore axis and boring reliability, I can't see what's not innovative about the design. Compared to the 1911, Glocks(and several other designs) are light years ahead. Its called progression.
TDC
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"I've seen most 1911 users draw from the holster, flinch, then realize they failed to drop the thumb safety."
TDC, from the above statement, I think you're experience with 1911 shooters is rather limited. It again brings into question your experience with firearms in general.
So many people on the internet, so many "experts", most have never carried a gun for a living (which does not make you an expert either) and have no clue.
TDC, when are you heading over to Israel to school the IDF on the Tavor? Maybe Larry Vickers could pick up some pointers from you on the deficienies of the 1911 pistol?
(For the record I'm not a big fan of 1911's.)
Rich
TDC, from the above statement, I think you're experience with 1911 shooters is rather limited. It again brings into question your experience with firearms in general.
So many people on the internet, so many "experts", most have never carried a gun for a living (which does not make you an expert either) and have no clue.
TDC, when are you heading over to Israel to school the IDF on the Tavor? Maybe Larry Vickers could pick up some pointers from you on the deficienies of the 1911 pistol?
(For the record I'm not a big fan of 1911's.)
Rich
So to clear the air...
Matt was so kind as to contact me and let me know that TDC is not he. So I apologize to Matt for the mistake. He also informs me that my Operator did in fact have an issue, but I honestly don't recall. He will enlighten me shortly, I think.
Now as for TDC, I have to reword my first comment.
I have to disagree with you on the "glock perfection" mislabel. I have seen as many Glocks fail as any other pistol. It is a good gun, just not made by Angels for the hands of men. In fact I have been involved in matches where glocks have failed so badly that they have had to be removed from service for repair. I have seen CPS service pistols crap out as frequently as any other service pistol. I know of (and have witnessed) instances where the barrel was mushroomed, slides cracked, actions have locked up, ejectors have "left the pistol" extractors have galled, slides have cracked, slide guides have been ripped from the gun, you name it, it can happen to a gun, it can happen to a Glock. Does this mean they are bad guns? Hell no, they are still a good gun. The point being the operator who was running the gun was most likely the issue, like every other well made firearm I have seen. We could sit here and you can tell me "is too" and I can sit here and say "is not" until the Liberals get themselves a new mud-hole stomped...
While I use a 1911 it is because I did the research and talked to a few professionals, admitedly, they are "old skool", but I trust them a lot more than I trust an advert. They all said the same thing, "guns stop, knowing how to deal with it is what matters". They were also kind enough to show me proper operation. I use a Swiss Arms Carbine in training, do I think its unstoppable? Nope. I train with it expecting that it just might stop when I'm on the pointy end. Even my C-7 had a MRBS of about 300 and my C-8 was around 275. I was always ready to run the show with either weapon. Again, this is to my point, its the monkey behind the machine, not the machine that counts.
Matt was so kind as to contact me and let me know that TDC is not he. So I apologize to Matt for the mistake. He also informs me that my Operator did in fact have an issue, but I honestly don't recall. He will enlighten me shortly, I think.
Now as for TDC, I have to reword my first comment.
I have to disagree with you on the "glock perfection" mislabel. I have seen as many Glocks fail as any other pistol. It is a good gun, just not made by Angels for the hands of men. In fact I have been involved in matches where glocks have failed so badly that they have had to be removed from service for repair. I have seen CPS service pistols crap out as frequently as any other service pistol. I know of (and have witnessed) instances where the barrel was mushroomed, slides cracked, actions have locked up, ejectors have "left the pistol" extractors have galled, slides have cracked, slide guides have been ripped from the gun, you name it, it can happen to a gun, it can happen to a Glock. Does this mean they are bad guns? Hell no, they are still a good gun. The point being the operator who was running the gun was most likely the issue, like every other well made firearm I have seen. We could sit here and you can tell me "is too" and I can sit here and say "is not" until the Liberals get themselves a new mud-hole stomped...
While I use a 1911 it is because I did the research and talked to a few professionals, admitedly, they are "old skool", but I trust them a lot more than I trust an advert. They all said the same thing, "guns stop, knowing how to deal with it is what matters". They were also kind enough to show me proper operation. I use a Swiss Arms Carbine in training, do I think its unstoppable? Nope. I train with it expecting that it just might stop when I'm on the pointy end. Even my C-7 had a MRBS of about 300 and my C-8 was around 275. I was always ready to run the show with either weapon. Again, this is to my point, its the monkey behind the machine, not the machine that counts.
Very good point here! I have done research years before I bought my G17. I have read posts at glocktalk.com that report flame cracked, or function failure or minor QC problems. That said the gun was made by human and #### will happened. I can't believe there are any commerical products can be perfect in a commerical world of 2009. I like my G17 so as my other pistols. It just a gun, no more and no less. it is only good because it is cheap and reliable.
Trigun
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- Off the "X"
I've certainly seen "some" 1911 shooters draw and spend a second figuring out they hadn't unsafed their pistol when shooting in a competitive environment that requires the pistol be holstered locked and cocked with safety on. I've seen other people go from a different platform to the 1911 and have a heck of a time getting used to taking it off safety. With enough practice, one would certainely get over this issue, but even if practicing a lot, one might have the same problem if suddenly stressed in a combat situation where a second would count.
Not that I have a problem with the 1911 platform or the safety.
Not that I have a problem with the 1911 platform or the safety.
