AR15 Iron sight question

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Orochi

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Hopefully this is not a repost as i couldn't find it through the search function so i apologize if it is.

Anyways I went out and shot my Ar15 (16" LE6920) with Iron sights for the first time today (Diemaco plastic BUIS) and noticed that the best i could do is about 2-3" grouping at 100yards and about 8-10" at 200yards...i can do 1MOA or less with optics (Elcan C79) at 100yards no problem so i was wondering if this is normal with iron sights? or do i just need more practice?

Also while zeroing my rifle i found out that i had issues adjusting my POI to match my POA as 1 click from the BUIS and front sight post (thin, 4 slots) usually pushes my POI 2" left or right and 3-4" up and down away from my POA at 100...just cant seem to line them up perfectly. Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks
 
I'm assuming here that you have a flat top version.
When I was serving and we got issued those back up sights we were told not to expect marksman groupings. The sights at the time as issued were meant to get us back into the fight, at least that is what we were told.
If anyone has another explaination i sure would love to hear too.
 
considering at 100 yards the width of the post on the iron sight is almost the width of the target, 2"-3" grouping I would say is pretty damn good, I was doing 100 yard shoot with just my iron sight this weekend, my result was nothing to write home about, all I am going say is "I can use the same target sheet next time" :p
 
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Are you using the battle sight or fine sight,you might not
be repeating the same sight alignment for every shot.Also,
what style of back up iron sight are you using?.:cool:




Edit: WOW ! 4 post in 3 minutes 8)
 
why cant you guys reply yesterday? :p anyways thanks for the help! ill read up on those, and budman im using the big circle battle sight since i was told the fine sight is rated for 300m+ so has a differ angle
 
You can use the fine at closer ranges,the larger battle makes it easier
to get a quicker sight picture at close range,use the fine sight as close
as you want.:cool:

Edit: think of it this way,you have TP tube and a straw,which one can
find a fly on the wall quicker,but which one will more accurate at hitting
the fly?.
 
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Ok, ok I will chim in.

There are different types of iron sights. If you trying to minimize aiming error you would use a very very small rear aperature to make it easier to get proper sight alignment.

rear_aperture_sight.jpg


and then you would need a fine diopter up front.

Stevensfrontsight.jpg



Then you would be set up to shoot the finest groups at perfectly round targets. Pretty much useless for anything else.

Your sight picture looks like this

AR15_Sight_Picture.jpg


Not nearly so fine as a diopter sight but far more useful at shooting minute of bad guy. 3 MOA with combat sights is very decent shooting.
 
Orochi said:
Hopefully this is not a repost as i couldn't find it through the search function so i apologize if it is.

Anyways I went out and shot my Ar15 (16" LE6920) with Iron sights for the first time today (Diemaco plastic BUIS) and noticed that the best i could do is about 2-3" grouping at 100yards and about 8-10" at 200yards...i can do 1MOA or less with optics (Elcan C79) at 100yards no problem so i was wondering if this is normal with iron sights? or do i just need more practice?


Thanks
Click to expand...


I have an older Colt HBAR that with an Elcan and my handloads can routinely shoot groups in the 1.0 to 1.25 MOA. I have recently taken the Elcan off the rifle and I am now shooting that rifle with the A2 rear sights and a thin (C-7 style) front sight. Prone off elbows I am getting about 2 MOA.

This seems pretty similar to your results. Overall I am not too surpised by the results. There are 2 issues that I consider to be negative factors with using iron sights vs a scope.

1. The front iron sight and target need to present a consistent and easily definable view. Iron sights can overwhelm the target and precise aiming becomes more difficult. Try using different target styles and see if a different target is easier to focus on when you are testing the accuracy of your rifle/sights. Also the total width of a 0.065 inch front sight works out to be 8 to 12 MOA depending upon your sight radius. You are trying to focus on the centre top of the front sight in order to acheive groups that are as small as possible. Overall iron sights are little more work to use well than a scope is. Not that iron sights are not as accurate as a scope, just a bit harder to use.

2. The accurate use of iron sights require a precise focus on the front sight that is a bit less than an arm length from your eye. That puts the front sight within the range of my reading glasses. My appreciation of scopes has grown in direct proportion to my need for reading glasses. In order to shoot iron sights (rifle or handgun) I have shooting glasses that have a lens that has enough reading diopter in it that I can see the sight and not so much reading diopter that I can not clearly see the target. These compromise glasses do not provide the optimal sight view. Compromised vision does not result in the best possible rifle accuracy.

With regards to your original question, I would consider that 2 MOA with iron sights as compared to 1 MOA with a scope is not too bad. You said that this was the first time that you had shot this rifle with the iron sights. With more practise and an effort to refine your iron sighting skill set I would expect that your iron sight shooting skill will in time approach your scoped rifle shooting skill.
 
Personally I am pretty happy with 2 moa off the irons in a sitting position. I do know people who can do better but I think using the battle sights on either an AR or M14 2 moa is pretty respectable.

Depending on the exact target I am shooting at I have sometimes been able to shrink groups a bit by picking a very precise part of the target to line up with the front post.
 
misanthropist said:
Personally I am pretty happy with 2 moa off the irons in a sitting position. I do know people who can do better but I think using the battle sights on either an AR or M14 2 moa is pretty respectable.

Depending on the exact target I am shooting at I have sometimes been able to shrink groups a bit by picking a very precise part of the target to line up with the front post.
Click to expand...


+1

I've been shooting my AR with irons for a while now and I'm doing pretty damn good to get a 2-3 inch group off the bench @ 100.

Longshot told us at the the service rifle course that even the best SR shooters are not getting 1 inch groups with optics and issue type AR's. If you have an AR built for accuracy and good ammo MOA I'm sure it's doable but then I doubt you'd run irons on it anyways so it's kind of a moot point.
 
I was shooting much the same as the OP when I first got into the AR. Someone suggested that I get a match front sight post. YMMV but it works for me. Something about a slightly finer sight made all the difference. The Colt upper I have is an A2 with surprisingly small apertures compared to any others I've seen. That has got me in the range Davy stated...2 to 3 MOA on a (real :rolleyes:) good day.
 
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