safety vs decocker - how to choose?

[TDC]

it's dummy prove, yes. but DA requires a longer trigger pull which adds time. so i wouldnt say it doesnt affect the time to send the first round out. 0.1 secound for extra trigger travel is still time . to a skilled shooter, the moment you grab the gun, your thumb should be on the manual safety and disengage it as you bring the gun up to sight. like chewing and swallowing, they go together or you choke , SA first shot will beat DA no matter how good you are .

SA may beat DA but only if the operator disengages the safety. Try that with your non dominant hand on a firearm without an ambi safety. I'm not a huge fan of DA/SA pistols which is why I run DAO Glocks.

On a side note I know a guy who can draw his SIG 220 9mm from the holster(thigh rig) from the buzzer and and make a first round hit in just over a half second. Thats DA..

TDC

 

[RUSTSPOT]

Check your facts and my last post. Most modern pistols have a firing pin block/safety that prevents firing pin movement unless the trigger is pulled to the rear. Aside from this, carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is a non issue. The grip safety blocks the trigger from moving and the frame mounted safety blocks the sear. A proper holster will protect the safety from being "wiped" off and should cover the entire trigger guard, thus preventing access should the grip safety somehow fail. A charged system such as a 1911 does inherently run the risk of mechanical failure causing an ND but I wouldn't concern myself with it.

TDC

well i know that most modern firing arms has firing pin block.sorry that i didnt clearly state it,but i was refereeing to 1911s and cz's that doesnt.. as for the sig, i wasn't sure if it's equip with firing pin block(had one but didnt care much about it and sold it). when i buy my guns, i tend to pick ones that doesnt have firing pin block as they are a bit more pain in the butt to do a complete disassemble and the disengagement of the pin block could affect the trigger pull smoothness in 1911s. i've only tried one 1911 with trigger activated firing pin block . i couldnt actually feel the firing pin block at work when the tirgger was being pulled due to the heavy factory pull it already has but i just prefer not to have things that i dont need.

as for the 1911 sear issue. like i mention. the MS does block the sear but if the sear itself broke in half at hard enough impact . the safety would serve you no good as there is nothing no else to catch the falling hammer. not saying that would likely happen ,but if the sear breaks , the gun would go off. as for the age old debate about carrying +1, that is something i dont want to get into. as we are not allow to carry. i have no experience to comment on that issue. i prefer not to have a loaded gun pointed at my leg all day as an insurance for the extra 0.3 second to chamber a round when i need to deploy a weapon for defensive use. mechanic parts do fail.

 

[Baldrick]

i've got a cz with a decocker and i don't find it all that hard to deal with.

I can decide if i want to shoot sa or da for the first shot then sa.

If i want to go sa from the de-cocked position with a round in the chamber, i just #### the hammer with my thumb.

If there is no round in the chamber i pull back on the slide and release and once again it's sa....

I think the only real difference is in a first shot self-defense situation where the choice would be between sweeping a safety and then firing sa or pulling a longer first shot in da and then continuing sa.....unless there is enough time to pull the hammer back and then the first shot could be sa as well with the de-cocker pistol.

Since i can't carry a pistol for self-defense it's a moot point.

+1

 

[TDC]

well i know that most modern firing arms has firing pin block.sorry that i didnt clearly state it,but i was refereeing to 1911s and cz's that doesnt.. as for the sig, i wasn't sure if it's equip with firing pin block(had one but didnt care much about it and sold it). when i buy my guns, i tend to pick ones that doesnt have firing pin block as they are a bit more pain in the butt to do a complete disassemble and the disengagement of the pin block could affect the trigger pull smoothness in 1911s. i've only tried one 1911 with trigger activated firing pin block . i couldnt actually feel the firing pin block at work when the tirgger was being pulled due to the heavy factory pull it already has but i just prefer not to have things that i dont need.

as for the 1911 sear issue. like i mention. the MS does block the sear but if the sear itself broke in half at hard enough impact . the safety would serve you no good as there is nothing no else to catch the falling hammer. not saying that would likely happen ,but if the sear breaks , the gun would go off. as for the age old debate about carrying +1, that is something i dont want to get into. as we are not allow to carry. i have no experience to comment on that issue. i prefer not to have a loaded gun pointed at my leg all day as an insurance for the extra 0.3 second to chamber a round when i need to deploy a weapon for defensive use. mechanic parts do fail.

And there is another reason why SA pistols are not ideal for carry. Personally I would have zero issue carrying a loaded SA. The additional time required to cycle the slide will put you behind the power curve in both competition as well as defensively.

TDC

 

[Can-down]

Regardless of target medium why would you choose to run your pistol in DA?TDC

If I was carrying my De-cocker model CZ with a round in the chamber and the hammer half cocked I might chose to shoot the first round DA because it would be the fastest first shot I could achieve in that condition.

I might also choose to pull a DA if I had a failure to ignite the primer before realizing ,through stress or lack of training, that I need to rack the slide and clear the dud and reload a fresh cartridge.


Since I target shoot I choose to shoot SA with my gun 99 % of the time.

 

[TDC]

If I was carrying my De-cocker model CZ with a round in the chamber and the hammer half cocked I might chose to shoot the first round DA because it would be the fastest first shot I could achieve in that condition.

I might also choose to pull a DA if I had a failure to ignite the primer before realizing ,through stress or lack of training, that I need to rack the slide and clear the dud and reload a fresh cartridge.


Since I target shoot I choose to shoot SA with my gun 99 % of the time.

The answer is in the question. Lack of training is what promotes "second strike" capability. Its a marketing gimmick.

TDC

 

[Canuck44]

Eliminating the need to disengage a positive safety speeds the firing sequence, does not affect the firing grip, reduces the mechanical piece count of the firearm and eliminates the possibility of forgetting the safety is engaged.

TDC

Where do you come up with this stuff TDC? Not a word of truth in any of this other than "it reduces the mechanical piece count" whatever practical advantage that has. Was this part of one of your two day courses you memorized?

Take Care

Bob

 

[TDC]

Where do you come up with this stuff TDC? Not a word of truth in any of this other than "it reduces the mechanical piece count" whatever practical advantage that has. Was this part of one of your two day courses you memorized?

Take Care

Bob

Please, do tell what professional training you have received Bob? You were eager to call me out in a previous thread and I listed my credentials as did Westicle. Man up and list yours.

As for my previous post. Answer me this. Is it possible to forget to disengage the safety on a 1911 or similarly equipped(as far as manual/positive safeties go) pistol? Is it possible to forget the safety on a DA/SA pistol such as a SIG? Is it possible to forget the safety on a Glock, XD, M&P?

Do all pistols equipped with manual safeties provide for ambidextrous operation?

Are all manual safeties located in the same fashion and/or orientation on all pistols?

TDC

 

[popcan]

Thanks for all the replies - obviously there are some very personal reasons for selecting one or the other....

In a nutshell, so far the point is well taken re: we cannot carry here, so there's no really strong argument for the ability to go cocked and locked, at least for those of us who only shoot at one-way ranges. However, at the same time, if that's what you prefer, there's no reason not to either.

Sounds like some decockers are only "somewhat" decocked, which I didn't know. That puts a different light on things to some degree as well.

Either system, for sure the best safety is the operator.

 

[Can-down]

The answer is in the question. Lack of training is what promotes "second strike" capability. Its a marketing gimmick.

TDC

Yes it was and is.


I was not aware that this was used for marketing.... but it makes sense!

Most gun owners are not as highly trained in stress management as professionals and it's easy to imagine someone pulling twice before clearing a mis-fire...

 

[TDC]

Yes it was and is.


I was not aware that this was used for marketing.... but it makes sense!

Most gun owners are not as highly trained in stress management as professionals and it's easy to imagine someone pulling twice before clearing a mis-fire...

I agree, the tendency to pull the trigger again is quite common but its not a valid reason for owning or promoting "second strike". The inability of SS with an SA or other non charging system(like Glocks) isn't a negative attribute. The vast majority of class one failures(click instead of bang) are due to unseated magazines not hard primers. I've covered this in another thread, the use of SS has the potential of solving only ONE possible problem; A hard primer. TAP RACK solves multiple problems. Unseated magazines, hard primers, bad primers, and class 2 malfunctions(stovepipes) all with the same movement that works with all semi auto pistols.

TDC

 

[giant yetti]

delete

 

[Westicle]

i prefer decock only models over safety models, but then again unless your playing a sport there is no reason on a double action pistol to carry the gun with safety on if your carrying it for self defense, the double action trigger pull is enough of a safety for a holstered gun firing from the double action mode.

frankly safeties are for cocked and locked carry.... unless of course your dept./organization mandates the gun must be carried hammer down, safety on.

so the safety vs decocker argument is a mote point.... realistically does it matter, once you shoot one system enough over another it is all about muscle memory anyway, whatever works.

 

[Contondant]

TAP RACK solves multiple problems. Unseated magazines, hard primers, bad primers, and class 2 malfunctions(stovepipes) all with the same movement that works with all semi auto pistols.
TDC

Sort of off topic (because I agree with your statement in general), but I've found that tap-rack is the worst thing I can do for a stovepipe as it usually leads to a double feed, because the next round has already been stripped but is not engaged by the extractor, plus the spent casing just falls back into the ejection port. I've had a lot of these as a result of experimenting with weaker loads with recoil springs that are too heavy. I've found you have to be able to recognize that you have a stovepipe from the second you feel the trigger stop working and deal with it by slapping the stovepiped casing back out of the ejection port or by dropping the mag and racking if that doesn't do it.

 

[Canuck44]

I was not aware that this was used for marketing.... but it makes sense!

...

Not many are....and it doesn't.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Can-down]

I guess it makes sense to me Bob because I use it with my .22 kadet kit and often a second strike will ignite the primer.

 

[Canuck44]

Yes I agree. I have that happen a few times as well. Hardly a marketing hype. The double strike ability has it's uses. TDC gets hung up on because he is into his tacti-cool fantasies.

Take Care

Bob

 

[raks]

From experience, I'd say this boils down to trigger response/feel/weight.

'Single action' guns have safeties and usually can be tuned to have exceptionally light but safe triggers.

'Safe action' (glock, S&W etc..) do not use a traditional safety but instead have IMO long mushy triggers that are a compromise somewhere between SA & DA.

'DA/SA' guns sometimes have a decocker and safety and while the first shot is a long double action pull, follow ups usually have shorter single action.

So then the choice is what kind of trigger do you want? Is it for games, target shooting or fun?? That will make a difference. I've shot my USP's both single action (safety) or DA/SA (using decock)... depends on the day & the game. Shoting a Sig 226 a lot now so I'm used to a DA first shot and I don't seem to miss the safety.

Ultimately with enough practice (whats that??) it all seems to even out regardless of pistol design...

 

[lookout]

Sort of off topic (because I agree with your statement in general), but I've found that tap-rack is the worst thing I can do for a stovepipe as it usually leads to a double feed, because the next round has already been stripped but is not engaged by the extractor, plus the spent casing just falls back into the ejection port. I've had a lot of these as a result of experimenting with weaker loads with recoil springs that are too heavy. I've found you have to be able to recognize that you have a stovepipe from the second you feel the trigger stop working and deal with it by slapping the stovepiped casing back out of the ejection port or by dropping the mag and racking if that doesn't do it.

Tap/Rack/Ready is primarily for defensive use or while training for it. The level 1 stoppage is usually (as stated by TDC) adequate to solve the majority of stoppages with a properly functioning pistol. Stovepipes are just not that common. If you have lots of stovepipes, there is a feeding or ammunition issue that must be contended with prior to using the piece for defensive use.
If the level 1 drill clears most stoppages in the most efficient manner considering tache psyche (ad nauseum) then it is the way to go, rather then thinking "well if this is a stovepipe then I should do this, but if its an unseated mag I should do this". The primary stoppage drill must be instilled ingrained into the mental synapse and into muscle memory.
IF you get a stovepipe and you end up with a double feed, then go to level 2 drill... lock/rip/rack/tap/rack/ready.......or to your backup piece.

for typical range use - who cares.

 

[mackattack]

Regardless of target medium why would you choose to run your pistol in DA?



DA/SA pistols are the first "point and pull" pistols. The striker fired pistols like the Glock, M&P, XD are the improved versions. Eliminating the need to disengage a positive safety speeds the firing sequence, does not affect the firing grip, reduces the mechanical piece count of the firearm and eliminates the possibility of forgetting the safety is engaged.

TDC