An excellent chart. I knew very little about the AR's ( other than using one back in the early 80's and recognising that they had to have changed a lot since then ) so I went with a S+W M+P 15 based, in part, on brand name and I have been very happy with mine. Fit and finish appears superior to others I have seen in stores and at the range and it has functioned perfectly with good accuracy.
AR15 quality levels?
- Thread starter YoungGun85
- Start date
I would really like to see one of the Norinco M4s assessed on the basis of this chart. I guess that would be difficult because finding out whether Norinco tests anything and if so how would probably be a serious battle.
rajczak_kashka
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
re
Bravo! The question was asked about the differences in the various AR platforms out there in the marketplace. I believe that I answered the question with honesty while drawing on my experience with the models I referred to.....including your beloved Norinco. Don`t dump on me because the Norinco is all that you can afford or wish to spend on a rifle. If you are happy with your knock off AR......then good on ya! I just wanted to point a newcomer in the right direction and by spending a few extra bucks on a better platform could avoid alot of the grief I have seen at the range with Norinco AR`s and M14`s for that matter.
Yes, I understand the "niche market" that Norinco guns fill and no, I am not jealous that I am not part of this market!
Bravo! The question was asked about the differences in the various AR platforms out there in the marketplace. I believe that I answered the question with honesty while drawing on my experience with the models I referred to.....including your beloved Norinco. Don`t dump on me because the Norinco is all that you can afford or wish to spend on a rifle. If you are happy with your knock off AR......then good on ya! I just wanted to point a newcomer in the right direction and by spending a few extra bucks on a better platform could avoid alot of the grief I have seen at the range with Norinco AR`s and M14`s for that matter.
Yes, I understand the "niche market" that Norinco guns fill and no, I am not jealous that I am not part of this market!
What was the reliability issue with your Norc M4? Or ANY other Norc M4 that you have seen first hand. How many rounds have you put through your Norc M4, and how many failures have you experienced?
Stag Arms rifles are very good. I dissagree about the Canadian distributor standing behind their products though. Buy a Stag if you find one for a good deal but do not under any circumstances buy a Stag Magazine. I bought two, both brand new, and they do not work at all since day one. Constant jamming. I now have five other brands that all work perfectly and have never jammed. The Canadian Distributor is well aware of my problem and has never offered two rectify the problem. So zero customer support for me at least.
Someone asked so I can highly reccomend the Dlask arms versions. I now have one and it is beyond perfection and the best quality parts. I like the idea of buying Canadian and the prices are comparible.
To each his own. Good luck. Norinco? You get what you pay for. 'Nuff said.
Again, many users have called you out on this.
Namely that you gave the Norinco an unfair appraisal.
You certainly did not give a fair representation of the AR spectrum.
Many users shop around for a gun based on cost vs perceived value. This ratio is high for the beloved Norinco. Hence it would be lacking to not point this out to a potential AR owner.
The flip side of the coin is that the Norinco is all that I can afford. Guess I should go back to voting Liberal and waiting for a hand out since clearly I'm not cut out for the gentleman's club.
Talking out of your ass...
Cheers.
Dlask uses Model 1 sales barrels, and my FSB was off center.
dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
The CDN Distributor was not aware of your problem until he read about your issue with the magazines in a post on CGN, not in any other way, no email, no messages. I offered to help then and heard nothing more about it, the offer remains. If you bought two mags from us, and they don't work, why don't you send them back for service or exchange? (If you send two, that would make three mags we've got back in four years). As I said last time, Stag Arms do not make magazines. The included mags are the C-Products Stanless Steel, lanced to 5 round mags, with Magpul anti-tilt followers. Top quality, and the same as lot's of others sells and use.
rajczak_kashka
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Surrey, B.C.
re
I do not own the Norinco AR. I have several friends who I shoot often with that do. One fella has two of them! The main issue with these particular examples is that they tend to jam relatively easy (stovepipe and double feed are the biggest issue). The issue of the double feed is related to the bolt carrier in combination with crummy mags. Out of the three examples that I have shot, only one functions relatively well. I believe that these rifles have now seen between 1000-2500 rounds through them. Are they broken in yet? Well....one in particular is closer to broken than broken in.LOL! Accuracy is not an issue....they are quite good in this area. Fit and finish is what you would expect for this price however.
The Norico M14 my brother inlaw owns and he has had grief with it since day one. I told him that he should have returned it and he now regrets not doing so. It, again, is accurate, when it works.....fit and finish are lousy, what can be expected for 1/5 of what a Springfield would cost. His rifle will no longer cycle properly and he basically now has a pseudo bolt action.LOL.
Would I buy Norinco, no......would I recommend them....no. If this is all that you can afford or are willing to spend on a rifle.....that is simply fine with me.
Enjoy yourselves and stay safe!
I do not own the Norinco AR. I have several friends who I shoot often with that do. One fella has two of them! The main issue with these particular examples is that they tend to jam relatively easy (stovepipe and double feed are the biggest issue). The issue of the double feed is related to the bolt carrier in combination with crummy mags. Out of the three examples that I have shot, only one functions relatively well. I believe that these rifles have now seen between 1000-2500 rounds through them. Are they broken in yet? Well....one in particular is closer to broken than broken in.LOL! Accuracy is not an issue....they are quite good in this area. Fit and finish is what you would expect for this price however.
The Norico M14 my brother inlaw owns and he has had grief with it since day one. I told him that he should have returned it and he now regrets not doing so. It, again, is accurate, when it works.....fit and finish are lousy, what can be expected for 1/5 of what a Springfield would cost. His rifle will no longer cycle properly and he basically now has a pseudo bolt action.LOL.
Would I buy Norinco, no......would I recommend them....no. If this is all that you can afford or are willing to spend on a rifle.....that is simply fine with me.
Enjoy yourselves and stay safe!
Well, I have had a lot of M14s pass through my hands...
Had enough money the last time I was buying to get a Springfield National Match...
Knew too much to spend the money, bought the Norinco.
Guys who know M14s take the Norinco seriously. I do not have enough experience with the AR to say whether it is good, but the M14s range from decent to excellent, although I have seen a couple that were junkers (this is also true of SAI).
Despite a long love affair with the Colt Series 70 (as anyone who knows me can tell, whether they have seen my collection or not) I have sold ALL my 1911s EXCEPT the Norincos, which are too reliable to get rid of.
So Norinco is definitely capable of building excellent guns, of that there is no question. Is the AR as good as the M14 and the 1911? That is the question.
Had enough money the last time I was buying to get a Springfield National Match...
Knew too much to spend the money, bought the Norinco.
Guys who know M14s take the Norinco seriously. I do not have enough experience with the AR to say whether it is good, but the M14s range from decent to excellent, although I have seen a couple that were junkers (this is also true of SAI).
Despite a long love affair with the Colt Series 70 (as anyone who knows me can tell, whether they have seen my collection or not) I have sold ALL my 1911s EXCEPT the Norincos, which are too reliable to get rid of.
So Norinco is definitely capable of building excellent guns, of that there is no question. Is the AR as good as the M14 and the 1911? That is the question.
Never owned a Norinco AR. Have I shot them, yes a few times, I've shot with people that own them.
Are they reliable, i've found them to be quite reliable, i've found that they consistantly don't shoot worth a S&iT, they cycled ok but from anything over 20 yds it looked like a shot gun pattern.
I've had a Colt Hbar and still have a Rock River piece and they've shot fantastic.
Better than half of my friends bolt guns for accuracy at the local range.
Like the guy said before if this is your budget limit and you want one and it,ll make you happy , knock your self out , go get one , just expect less and you won't be disappointed.
M.
Are they reliable, i've found them to be quite reliable, i've found that they consistantly don't shoot worth a S&iT, they cycled ok but from anything over 20 yds it looked like a shot gun pattern.
I've had a Colt Hbar and still have a Rock River piece and they've shot fantastic.
Better than half of my friends bolt guns for accuracy at the local range.
Like the guy said before if this is your budget limit and you want one and it,ll make you happy , knock your self out , go get one , just expect less and you won't be disappointed.
M.
I'm not sure what those are. Mine has a 14" bull barrel and works awsome. As much of a Dlask groupie that I am, I have heard personally of a few less than perfect specimens. Joe usually is happy to fix any problems though which would be a lot easier than a U.S. made product if it had a problem. Hope you got your FSB fixed o.k.
Your memory is worse than your B.S. You never answered my first two E-mails and you never offered anything in the way of a return. Of course
I never bought the mags from you because one came with the gun and the other was purchased from Hunters who are out of business, so Gee, I guess I'm out of luck. Who cares if Stag does not make the mags. They may be from C-Products, but they come with the gun. They are made in the same city as Stag, so I think there is some connection. Does it matter? I am just one P.O'd owner of a product you distribute and will excercise my freedom of speech whenever someone asks for an opinion. You had your chance to rectify the problem before it entered this public forum. Too late.
I took it off and put a gas block flip front sight.
Military discount? What kind? How much? Tell me more.
I have a friend who also had jams with his "Stag" mag (the one who came with his Stag rifle) . Jamming at every shot.
Furthermore, last year, I ordered a rifle to Arms East via e-mail at the adress advertised on the website. Never got a reply.... Should have PM'd DT instead I guess...
Now I own a Bushmaster XM15E2S Law Enforcement. I'm happy with my purchase. Nice looking and works well... at least for the 40 rounds I put through it lol. I noticed 2 on sale on the EE forum. Weird that I only see the same rifle I own on EE once I bought it...
As I said, my friend has a Stag, and is satisfied with it. If I were to buy another AR (which will probably happen), I'll consider Stag again. I'd also like to buy Dlask to buy canadian, but I heard some crap about those, and if i remember their price are a bit higher.
Anyway, the debate about ARs will never end. It's like cars or martial arts. IMHO: Stag, Armalite, Bushmaster, RRA, Dlask, are all equivalent. LMT is a bit more expensive. You buy a colt for the brand.
Norinco? Didn't experience it. I think that when you handle a norinco you don't have the feeling to handle the real thing. Notice how people refer to their norinco guns as "Norc M14", "Norc 1911", etc. I won't put down Norc owners, as we are all part of the great firearms owners family. Norinco indeed fills a market and I heard good things about them.
It's my 2 cents. Like I said earlier, AR are like cars/ martial arts.
Well written DT, very interesting. Please explain why "the chart" contradicts your point such as the bolt being MPI and shot-peened.
Because "the chart" has errors and mis-information.
Those charts are often based on previous publications, and the source and validity is often very questinable. DT is giving you the facts as they pertain to the STAG equipment he imports and distributes. He knows the product and the facts... he has reason to insure you get the correct information.
I read "errors" and mis-information in various FORUMS all the time. People spread this mis-information constantly... to the point where it becomes "fact" in many people's minds.
Just because you read something somewhere doesn't necessarily make it true. Just because some industry writer publishes an article in a trade magazine DOES NOT make the information contained in that article true or accurate. There are mistakes published all the time... many of the so-called "writers" are far from experts. Many publish articles solely to get FREE STUFF. Many of the articles are biased... when was the last time you read a trade publication where the author of the story trashed the product? Such articles are bad for business... and it is a business. The writer won't get his "FREE STUFF" and the publication may lose an advertiser (and the advertising dollars are what keep them in business).
If Walter tells you that STAG bolts are MPI then they are. At the very least he believes it to be true because that's what the company has told/shown him. I would believe that before I'd believe what somebody posted or published in an article which may or may not be factual and who's source and motivations are highly questionable.
I know that LMT's bolts are also MPI... I get that information directly from LMT... but I do not stand there and personally inspect every bolt they produce, so I give that information based on what I'm told by reputable, knowledgeable sources, and from my experience examining 100's of LMT bolts and seeing the MP markings. When I read someone state that their "LMT Upper" did not have an MPI bolt it only goes to say that THEIR upper may have been that way... Of course it does not explain where their upper came from... who had it before them... what was done to it or what parts were exchanged and by whom. It's easy to make assumptions and draw erroneous conclusions.
It's important to differentiate between FACTS and OPINIONS. There are a lot of opinions being disguised as fact and expressed on internet forums. As forum readers it is our obligation to determine the difference... especially before we go and spread the information (or mis-information as the case may be).
JUST MY OPINION
Mark
