AR15 quality levels?

I think Stag has the best value for the money. I am on my 3rd AR and 2 two of them have been stags (very happy with them). As for Walt at Arms east, I have never had a hard time getting a hold of him and he has always been most helpfull. One of the best.
Some goes with most of out sponsers.

cheers,
Justin
 
sillymike said:
Here's a good chart that compares various brands...
Click to expand...

Why is this a "good" chart? I can take the same info and produce a chart that will say whatever I want it to... make whichever brand I want look good... all by changing slightly the compared list of features.

This whole thing reminds me of a lesson my Dad used to use when I was young. He would ask me: Who makes the best truck? Most people will simply answer the question with their opinion... saying Ford or GMC or Dodge, etc.. But the wise man... the smart man... he will first ask: What do you want to do with your truck... what are the features you are looking for. Then he will answer the question based on that detailed information.

People who ask: What's the best AR?... or please "rank" the various AR's are like asking what's the best truck... but not giving any details on requirements, expectations, purpose, etc.. It's really impossible to answer the question properly without that information. I can give you an answer but the answer is BS if it doesn't take into account those specifics as they apply to you... because "Best" is an individual thing. "Best" for me may not be "Best for you and your application.

Mark
 
I think half the time these charts are designed for guys to help 'justify' their purchases, and make them feel good about how much $ they spent on their AR.

I love all the Norinco bashing, a few brand name USA AR's showed up at the local gun shop last week ( I don't what to start a flame war by naming them) and the 'fit and finish' was no better than the Norinco CQA I picked up a few weeks earlier ( you could tell that the front sight was put on and pinned before the parkerizing was done, it going to look UGLY if you need to swap out the gas block down the road). The only advantage I would see was the heavy barrel. The same thing applies to the Imperial Defense that I looked at also, no better or worse that the US brand or the Norinco. At times I think we have USA envy when to comes to AR brands (Which I am also guilty of ALL the time)

I think Mark @ Questar brings up some good points, it all depends on what you want your AR to do.

I think if you want to have the 'superior' AR you really need to piece together all the best components from the various manufactures, although at the end of the day there will be no guarantee that the extra cost will give you a vastly accurate shot (I am sure it will be better than average, but will the added $$$ justify the limited improvement? - that is really the question)


/cl
 
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MustangFrank said:
Your memory is worse than your B.S. You never answered my first two E-mails and you never offered anything in the way of a return. Of course
I never bought the mags from you because one came with the gun and the other was purchased from Hunters who are out of business, so Gee, I guess I'm out of luck. Who cares if Stag does not make the mags. They may be from C-Products, but they come with the gun. They are made in the same city as Stag, so I think there is some connection. Does it matter? I am just one P.O'd owner of a product you distribute and will excercise my freedom of speech whenever someone asks for an opinion. You had your chance to rectify the problem before it entered this public forum. Too late.
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Dangertree just publicly offered to exchange the defective magazine you received with the rifle. You haven't posted one response saying that you would like to accept his offer.

Then you change your story from there being several magazines you received from Arms East that don't work, to just the one from Arms East and the other you purchased as an after-market accessory from a gun shop on the opposite side of the country...and this defective magazine somehow becomes Walter's fault as well???? Talk about convoluted logic!

If you weren't already aware; the single biggest design defect in the entire AR-15 platform is the magazines. That is a fact, pure and simple. Magazine feedlips are easy to bend/damage and with extended use they can crack. Slight changes in geometry of the feed lips can mean all the difference between a reliable magazine and one that jams constantly.

Walter has publicly stated here that he will replace the defective magazine that was included with your purchase of a STAG rifle. I would suggest you accept his offer.

As for any other defective magazines you've purchased, I would suggest you return them to the point of purchase for refund or replacement. If the shop you bought them from is out of business, try contacting the manufacturer directly and explaining your problem. They may opt to stand behind their product and provide a voucher for new magazines from one of their other Canadian retailers.
 
Absolutely right Clang! I was with some of the other AR15 geeks at the range when some kid shooting an SKS told us we had wasted our money and that the SKS is all a fella really needs. How can you argue with that? The only opinion that really matters is the one from the bum in the mirror. LOL.

When I was younger paying for rifles and ammo came in second to paying for diapers, food and rent...and I would have really appreciated a Norinco all those years ago. Now that I am older I have more disposeable income I can finally afford some of the nicer things in life so I bought what I consider a 'mid-market' brand as opposed to the low end stuff. If somebody wants to chase the pennies under the table and tell me I could have saved a couple hundred bucks I am cool with it.

When ya get right down to it this whole sport is a waste of money...I could also buy an SKS and save even more I suppose....
 
Well said Glenfilthie! I've got the same T-shirt. Worked too hard too long to abide some kid telling me what I need. I can decide that thanks.
 
HKMark23 said:
Well said Glenfilthie! I've got the same T-shirt. Worked too hard too long to abide some kid telling me what I need. I can decide that thanks.
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How many of us actually need guns to live? Does a guy who makes a good living really need a BMW or an Audi? This is a hobby for me, for my enjoyment. I may not need ARs in the strictest meaning of the word, but I want them and that's why I have them.
 
I wanted to get in contact with armseast on 1 occasion. I went to the internet, looked up their contact number and hours of operation, I then called, a guy answered, politely told me he didn't have stock of the product I was looking for, but to please check back in a month. It was super easy to get hold of him. I don't buy all of this "I emailed ten times, blah blah blah." if you want to get in touch with a company, its generally pretty easy!
 
Magazines are consumable, like ammo, bolts, exteractors and barrels. I am into my AR for $2500+ so the cost of a few mags wearing is not a huge issue, it is just one of the costs of shooting.
 
Does anyone here have any experience with Dlask? I have heard in the past that they had some quality control issues. I would like to buy Canadian, so any input would be appreciated.
 
Most people say ABCD.

Armalite
Bushmaster
Colt
DPMS

I own two Bushmaster XM15-E2S and love them....top quality.

AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine (M4 style) 16" HBAR, 6-position stock, etc
AR-15A3 Target model....20" HBAR, A2 fixed stock / full-size.

P&D Enterprise has the 20" Target model NIB for $1,550.00

Give 'em a shout :)
 
Pietro Beretta said:
Most people say ABCD.

Armalite
Bushmaster
Colt
DPMS
Click to expand...

Maybe 10 years ago but I seriously doubt that "most people" say that today... and I would argue that those who use that little saying today are not well versed with the current marketplace and product offerings. It may sound cute but it's not accurate.

Recommend what you like... that's perfectly valid... but don't make statements that are not supportable. Saying "most people say" is an awfully big claim with absolutely no proof or support.

I for one don't say that... and I don't agree with the statement. Of course I'm obviously not "most people" ;)

Mark
 
Questar said:
Maybe 10 years ago but I seriously doubt that "most people" say that today... and I would argue that those who use that little saying today are not well versed with the current marketplace and product offerings. It may sound cute but it's not accurate.

Recommend what you like... that's perfectly valid... but don't make statements that are not supportable. Saying "most people say" is an awfully big claim with absolutely no proof or support.

I for one don't say that... and I don't agree with the statement. Of course I'm obviously not "most people" ;)

Mark
Click to expand...
For sure. Let's count the number of times a CGNer has posted about a quality control issue with Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Stag, LMT, Rock River and even Norinco.... None.

The only questionable products shown and talked about that I can ever recall were by Olympic arms. Not to mention, I can't recall actually seeing any proof that Dlask has made inferior products, despite the perpetual oogie-boogie talk about them.
 
MustangFrank said:
Your memory is worse than your B.S. You never answered my first two E-mails and you never offered anything in the way of a return. Of course
I never bought the mags from you because one came with the gun and the other was purchased from Hunters who are out of business, so Gee, I guess I'm out of luck. Who cares if Stag does not make the mags. They may be from C-Products, but they come with the gun. They are made in the same city as Stag, so I think there is some connection. Does it matter? I am just one P.O'd owner of a product you distribute and will excercise my freedom of speech whenever someone asks for an opinion. You had your chance to rectify the problem before it entered this public forum. Too late.
Click to expand...

We're not the C-Products distributor, but if you had a bad mag, and it came with your gun, we would have first offered advice on adjustment depending on the type of FTF, or replaced if it necessary. If a new mag is jamming, it can usually be resolved quickly by adjusting the angle of the feed lip angle until it does feed, depends on the type of FTF. Not to say that a bad mag cannot exist.

They are made in the same city, they're next door actually, but are not related companies. C-Products is a large supplier of magazines.

I stand by my post regarding how I found out about this, and that I offered to replace it last time you posted this. We're both free to exercise our freedom of speech, but I'll leave my exercise at that.
 
Pietro Beretta said:
Most people say ABCD.

Armalite
Bushmaster
Colt
DPMS

I own two Bushmaster XM15-E2S and love them....top quality.

AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine (M4 style) 16" HBAR, 6-position stock, etc
AR-15A3 Target model....20" HBAR, A2 fixed stock / full-size.

P&D Enterprise has the 20" Target model NIB for $1,550.00

Give 'em a shout :)
Click to expand...

The last time I heard somebody recommend a DPMS was probably around 1998.

Most people these days would say something roughly like this, I think - this is in ROUGH order for most people I believe, but any of the first 3 would probably satisfy most people:

Colt
Noveske
LMT
Sabre maybe?

Stag
CMMG
RRA
Armalite
S&W
Bushmaster

Somewhere down the line you MIGHT hear somebody recommend an Olympic or a DPMS...maybe

I am not an AR guy so these are not MY recommendations, I am just commenting on what I believe most people that are in to ARs would tell you. I am sure you would see a lot of disagreement as to whether CMMG is better than RRA, or whether Bushmaster is better than S&W but I do not think you would see many people arguing about whether anything in group 2 is better than anything in group 1.
 
misanthropist said:
The last time I heard somebody recommend a DPMS was probably around 1998.

Most people these days would say something roughly like this, I think - this is in ROUGH order for most people I believe, but any of the first 3 would probably satisfy most people:

Colt
Noveske
LMT
Sabre maybe?

Stag
CMMG
RRA
Armalite
S&W
Bushmaster

Somewhere down the line you MIGHT hear somebody recommend an Olympic or a DPMS...maybe

I am not an AR guy so these are not MY recommendations, I am just commenting on what I believe most people that are in to ARs would tell you. I am sure you would see a lot of disagreement as to whether CMMG is better than RRA, or whether Bushmaster is better than S&W but I do not think you would see many people arguing about whether anything in group 2 is better than anything in group 1.
Click to expand...


If your not an AR guy then your recommendations are useless! Also how is COLT put above in the first category, Most Bushmasters i have seen are far better than the COLTS i have seen in actions, not that it really matters.
Bushmasters were the rave in 2003 , and Armalite were getting a bad reputation, personally i think it had to do with operator errors. The last Colt I witnessed breaking down at the range in 2004-05, does not mean they are bad rifles by any means.

I also have to say these debates are usually fueled by people that either work for competing companies or by people who have never even put a lot of stress on their rifles to have a clue what is the best AR.

The best AR is the one that has not been made yet!

That is for certain!
 
As you will no doubt note they are NOT my recommendations...I am commenting not on what anyone should by buy or not buy, but on the statement "most people say ABCD."

My experience is that most people do NOT say ABCD, but give a list similar to the one above.

I predict you will not find many people who agree with your position on Colts and Bushmasters.
 
Anything that keeps eating what it is fed, and asks for more and hits what I am aiming at, works for me. I do not depend on it daily to keep me alive so a lot of the nit picking is overkill for me. I like to go out and get the barrel hot, and as long as it goes bang when the trigger is pulled. Smiles.

I have a stag and love it. Too much, I have been thinking of building an AR now. Been bitten Bad. Thinking of a spr clone.

I say buy what you can afford, and use it. Introduce other non shooters to it, and lets get this sport growing and healthy.
 
cancer said:
For sure. Let's count the number of times a CGNer has posted about a quality control issue with Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Stag, LMT, Rock River and even Norinco.... None.

The only questionable products shown and talked about that I can ever recall were by Olympic arms. Not to mention, I can't recall actually seeing any proof that Dlask has made inferior products, despite the perpetual oogie-boogie talk about them.
Click to expand...

In general, the reliability of "aftermarket" ARs seems to have increased over the years. 10 years ago, it is much more common to run into problems if you don't buy "colt", especially with carbines.

The adoption of M4s made carbine popular in the late 90's - this reflects a shift in sales distribution. Many "aftermarket"manufacturers were still on the learning curve.

Finally the "other" manufacturers appeared to catch on the technical details in the last few years....and more armourers/gunsmith started educating themselves about the system. People are much more educated.

Most manufacturers appear to be capable of making reasonably reliable ARs - but that does not automatically translate to durable ARs, though more and more manufacturers are becoming aware.
 
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