Updated: Incorporating Tactical Rifle shooters into F-Class Matches

There are different ways to classify/divide. All are presumably done in the interests of having a fairer, or better, or more interesting competition, or to otherwise benefit us.

1 - classify based on equipment. This is what F-Class has done so far.
2 - classify based on shooter's past performance (Sharpshooter, Master, etc). Quite common in many disciplines, including iron sights fullbore.

The Australians (pgs. 29-30 of http://nraa.com.au/pubs/SSRs.pdf) not only have a "grading" system which is a (2)-like system, they also use a "division system" for their matches in which they create more or less equally-sized pools of competitors (using their grading results). Then again they have *lots* of shooters.

Since there is a greater variety of equipment in F-Class (insofar as it affects the scores produced) than in Target Rifle, the system Aubrey suggests looks like it is folding in the effects of system (1) and (2) together - combining the effects of shooter skill and equipment performance, and classifying on that.

One wrinkle with Aubrey's suggestion might be how to deal with shooters who change rifles from time to time. If I were to shoot for a few years with a .308 and get an established rating, what should happen if I decide to start competing with a new 6.5-.284? Will I end up getting a "free ride" until the ratings system catches up to me? Or is there a better way to handle this?
 
rnbra-shooter said:
One wrinkle with Aubrey's suggestion might be how to deal with shooters who change rifles from time to time. If I were to shoot for a few years with a .308 and get an established rating, what should happen if I decide to start competing with a new 6.5-.284? Will I end up getting a "free ride" until the ratings system catches up to me? Or is there a better way to handle this?
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Daniel; My intent is to let only shooter performance govern the rating. If better equipment or more experience improves the score then that will determine the rating. Better scores, better rating. Lesser scores lesser rating.

The only major "Free Rider" I see is the "Greenshot" (first time shooter) with excellent hand/eye coordination and first rate equipment in good weather could post "Master" scores in his/her first shoot. This may happen for one competition only as any future scores will determine the rating.

Regards

Aubrey
 
I am not going to close the door on the shooter classifications system, but I am not generally in favour of it. I am not personally interested in maintaining and verifying a list, and when it comes to awards, etc. it makes no difference.

The magazine issue is a bit tricky. F-Class is an evolution of TR and they don't use magazines, plus F-class has become a pursuit of greater and greater accuracy. To that end, single shot actions are the gold standard.

Matches are conducted to ICFRA rules, and while mags can be inserted, the rifles are used single shot. Since F-Tactical would essentiually be an "exhibition sport" in the sense that - at present - there is no official F-Tac designation, nor regional matches, there is a bit of latitude in the use of mags.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with their use. We used large capacity magazines - and they still do - in the military, and there was never a single issue with using them. If "officially" adopted, a decision would have to be made that keeps all the mandarins happy, but I'm more concerned about keeping it fun and worthy of tac shooters spending their hard earned money and precious time (like all participants) at one of our matches.

Keep the customers happy!
 
I have had my say and will now sit back.......

What is troubling is the fact that we hear membership is dropping in the shooting associations, A lot of the older shooters are leaving, and there is a cry out for "new blood" to fill the ranks and keep competitive shooting alive........

You would think that those who run the associations and the membership would be more then willing in times like these to accomodate a new class of shooters who want to come out and compete more often, the same way they compete in their Championship match..........Guess I may be wrong...........:confused:
 
Skullboy said:
I have had my say and will now sit back.......

What is troubling is the fact that we hear membership is dropping in the shooting associations, A lot of the older shooters are leaving, and there is a cry out for "new blood" to fill the ranks and keep competitive shooting alive........

You would think that those who run the associations and the membership would be more then willing in times like these to accomodate a new class of shooters who want to come out and compete more often, the same way they compete in their Championship match..........Guess I may be wrong...........:confused:
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Don’t sit back; we need your input to make this discussion meaningful. This thread is all about trying to accommodate Tactical shooters into “F” Class however; I’m still not clear about what you are asking. Are you asking that the “F” Class matches run a separate Tactical match at the same time? Or do you want something different than this? If different than a regular Tactical match what would the differences be? We can’t help you if you don’t tell us precisely what you want. Tell us how you would run an “F” Class match that would satisfy the Tactical competitors.

Regards

Aubrey
 
I look at this almost like IPSC. different guns different rules to handle them. While we all shoot the same target in IPSC, our scores can depend on what a calibre is used and division we shoot in.
there isn't much point in comparing an Open shooter with his highly modified, comensated gun to a Glock shooter in Production (except in rare cases). It's two totally different beasts and as such should be treated differently.
 
run an F-Class match, for the Tac shooters present us with a different target, either the ones we are used to seeing at the Tac matches, Figure 14's or whatnot, or at the very least targets with the same sized scoring rings as we are aiming for on our normal Tac Rifle targets. Allow us to load from the magazine. Time periods, sighters, or whatever the F Class normally does, would all still apply.
it wouldn't be hard to incorporate, just let the people pulling targets what target goes on which frame.
 
Slavex said:
run an F-Class match, for the Tac shooters present us with a different target, either the ones we are used to seeing at the Tac matches, Figure 14's or whatnot, or at the very least targets with the same sized scoring rings as we are aiming for on our normal Tac Rifle targets. Allow us to load from the magazine. Time periods, sighters, or whatever the F Class normally does, would all still apply.
it wouldn't be hard to incorporate, just let the people pulling targets what target goes on which frame.
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That's the plan....

Typical F-Class match with the difference being the target. This is not complicated, I'm frankly not sure where the confusion or apprehension seems to be coming from. If you like it. come on by! If you don't that's ok too.
 
Slavex said:
run an F-Class match, for the Tac shooters present us with a different target, either the ones we are used to seeing at the Tac matches, Figure 14's or whatnot, or at the very least targets with the same sized scoring rings as we are aiming for on our normal Tac Rifle targets. Allow us to load from the magazine. Time periods, sighters, or whatever the F Class normally does, would all still apply.
it wouldn't be hard to incorporate, just let the people pulling targets what target goes on which frame.
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BINGO!!!!!

Aubrey, this is all we want............;) :D

Due to family commitments, I can't make every match, but I would make an effort to attend those I could......:D
 
Obtunded said:
I am not going to close the door on the shooter classifications system, but I am not generally in favour of it. I am not personally interested in maintaining and verifying a list, and when it comes to awards, etc. it makes no difference.
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Obtunded said:
Ian; You are correct. Maintaining and verifying a list of shooter scores is the down side of a performance based classification system. It does however eliminate most of the endless equipment "What If" discussions that consumes more time than maintaining a shooters performance log. With your executive power as our Provincial "F" Class director I'm sure you could appoint a scoring committee to develop and maintain a simple Excel program for this purpose.........but only if you think a performance based classification system has merit and would safisfy most competitors.


Regards

Aubrey
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Slavex said:
run an F-Class match, for the Tac shooters present us with a different target, either the ones we are used to seeing at the Tac matches, Figure 14's or whatnot, or at the very least targets with the same sized scoring rings as we are aiming for on our normal Tac Rifle targets. Allow us to load from the magazine. Time periods, sighters, or whatever the F Class normally does, would all still apply.
it wouldn't be hard to incorporate, just let the people pulling targets what target goes on which frame.
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The only thing I would add to this (and perhaps it's stating the obvious), is to have those competitors rifles that wish to compete under the 'tac' designation checked, to ensure that they fall within the definition of a tac rifle (that currently exists for the 'other' match). Weight, barrel length, trigger pull, etc.
 
Hello Gents,

I have stayed out of this discussion mostly to see how much interest the concept would generate(not to mention my own personal bias ), and now that there appears to be PLENTY of interest I will clarify for those folks That are either confused or reluctant to encourage a new Approach to promoting Participation in our shooting sports -F Class TR as well other existing Disciplines, the concept that I proposed. When I first approached Ian with the idea it seemed pretty straight forward, give the Tac shooters,Service rifle Crowd and or members of the law enforcement community That compete in the BCRA Tac match as well as NEW shooters a series of practice sessions,Match's and a venue to help encourage participation, not only in TAC But to help Service Rifle shooters obtain zeros and practice on targets they will encounter in there match's ,Allow Tac shooters more then one Match in a year and encourage them to attend practice sessions, allow and encourage NEW shooters the ability to shoot at targets that are Bigger(then a standard F class target) and more exciting then standard circular targets, as well as allowing shooters to participate with rifles they already own with out having to purchase or build purpose built rifles (a corner Stone concept When F Class was proposed - I was at that AGM when it was proposed by the way- "Get the existing rifles out of the lock ups and closets and shoot them"- the concept was to encourage older shooters to continue to participate )All the while shooting shoulder to shoulder with existing F Class shooters (F-TR Open) as well as TR shooters observing there shooting styles and equipment and have the F-TR Open -TR guy's get a look at what the Service Shooters, TAC shooters are doing and how . The whole concept of Tac rifle is based on the real world "Working gun" as used by Military,Police,hunters and civilian enthusiasts, the Equipment rules are based on the primes of what would be encountered in the field, what equipment could and would be employed and be regularly carried to obtain the desired results , so machine rests ,Remple Bi pods, Bunny ear rear bags, scope's of higher then 25x triggers lighter then 2.2 lbs(1kg) are not allowed and are just a few of the rules which help to STOP the equipment race that always follows any successful sport the GAMERS get involved and in many cases the initial concept is corrupted.Allowing a TAC-Fclass allows those folks with bone stock equipment to PARTICIPATE and while being exposed to other Shooting Disciplines and equipment make a informed conscious decision regarding what shooting style /discipline they wish to pursue .Now thats not to say that there are not plenty of expense tricked out rigs used in the
TAC but TAC encourages a minimalistic approach to rests and ancillary equipment there by allowing Hunters, and NEW shooters a place to start and observe Precision rifle shooting with out having to spend money until they have decided which game suits them . I would very much like to shoot the BCRA F class TR Championship and give the concept a trial run to all those interested in shooting this match please contact Ian soonest so Ian can prepare targets and be ready to to support us Logistically we do need a minimum of 5 shooters to make it worthwhile . Ian I thank you very much for having an open mind and allowing the concept a chance


Thank you

Ed Begg
CO/Director BCRA
Tatcical Rifle
 
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OK.. so who do we talk to for the who what where when and why?? I am interested.. I will have to reinstall my factory 308 barrel on my Savage but if 260 AIs aren't allowed I am willing to do that...hell i have 120 rounds of 155 Lapua to burn up anyway..

Is there going to be a website set up for information???
 
Maybe we should just have more tactical matches!!! F-class shoots along side tr's now Why not have a tactical match along side tr and f-class. right now we have 2 different targets at a match why not have a couple position for Tactical, They can score and mark there own targets. Use what ever they want for targets. All they would have to do is fallow our timing and range disapline in regards to safety.
 
Ed's bang on here.The reason the BCRA Sniper shoot of old started to slowly fade away was because there was no class system.All the high speed single shots,with 29 inch barrels in fast calibers used to clean up on the guys with tactical .223's and
.308's.Eventually the tac shooters said why would I bother going when I know I can't compete on a level playing field.There must be a decent set of rules in place for F-Tac regarding equipment and gear or it will become another arms race.I prefer to see the shooters shoot under a basic set of rules so that the skills come through and outshines the equipment.Remember there are people who depend on thier rifles to keep them and others alive these days.Lets help hone the skill and leave the equipment races for IPSC(no offence Slavex) ;)
 
Ed, thanks for hopping in, it is nice to hear from one of the true tactical shooters out there to get a feel for what folks feel and want.

I fully intend to champion the cause... Ed makes the excellent point that shooting matches have become a kit race in many regards and i would love nothing more than to have a class where someone with a stock Savage, Remington or Tikka can put his rifle through its paces and can be successful within the parameters of the performance for which their rifle was designed.

I will be honest, I think with the Police and Fire games abutting the BCFTRC there is a large contingent of these shooters that will be at Chilliwack and as such I am not "feeling the love" about incorporating this concept this year. I don't want to play my hand early, but reluctance seems to be over the use of a non ICFRA target.

While the BC Championship this year does not look to be the debut for the F-Tac concept, the Running of the V-Bulls match most definitely will be. I can pretty much assure that it will be here to stay at the club level matches with the right demand and shooter support. BCRA adoption of the class will be pretty hard to ignore with the support established for the idea.

This will need to get up and running in order to allow for evolution regarding targets, equipment and other fundamentals. I know we have the right people out there to help make it happen.
 
Marksmen said:
Maybe we should just have more tactical matches!!! F-class shoots along side tr's now Why not have a tactical match along side tr and f-class. right now we have 2 different targets at a match why not have a couple position for Tactical, They can score and mark there own targets. Use what ever they want for targets. All they would have to do is fallow our timing and range disapline in regards to safety.
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Brent,
I like the idea of more match's BUT
When or where do you think we can schedule extra match's????? The B.C.R.A. has enough trouble getting the range for its existing schedule never mind extra event days added to the range schedule . We do intend to shoot beside the F class and tr shooters and we do intend to use our own targets and have dedicated target frames this was and has already been established and voted on at the last AGM in so far as TAC shooters Being allowed to practice with TAC targets at B.C.R.A Practice sessions ( I don't see how anything would change in a F Class match) Now that being said I don't think a TAC style match could be shot along side a regular F Class TR match without a coordinating head ache or one side or the other being inconvenienced or disrupted in some way -No movers = static targets= F Class -TAC I am sure some of the Veteran shooters would have a Puppy if the target beside them went up and down with 3 second exposures While spotters are communicating with there shooters . ...... I don't foresee any problem following the range tempo or having any problem following any safety rules, there are plenty of experienced shooters that don't mind looking after any NEW people and showing them the ropes. Some of us plan on shooting regular F Class as well and have done so in the past with out any difficulties , safety issues or trouble with "timing" and have done so with notable success so I doubt there would be any interruptions of the shooting program

Regards
Ed
 
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Obtunded said:
Ed, thanks for hopping in, it is nice to hear from one of the true tactical shooters out there to get a feel for what folks feel and want.

I fully intend to champion the cause... Ed makes the excellent point that shooting matches have become a kit race in many regards and i would love nothing more than to have a class where someone with a stock Savage, Remington or Tikka can put his rifle through its paces and can be successful within the parameters of the performance for which their rifle was designed.

I will be honest, I think with the Police and Fire games abutting the BCFTRC there is a large contingent of these shooters that will be at Chilliwack and as such I am not "feeling the love" about incorporating this concept this year. I don't want to play my hand early, but reluctance seems to be over the use of a non ICFRA target.

While the BC Championship this year does not look to be the debut for the F-Tac concept, the Running of the V-Bulls match most definitely will be. I can pretty much assure that it will be here to stay at the club level matches with the right demand and shooter support. BCRA adoption of the class will be pretty hard to ignore with the support established for the idea.

This will need to get up and running in order to allow for evolution regarding targets, equipment and other fundamentals. I know we have the right people out there to help make it happen.
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Ian,
I have trouble reconciling the fact that out of town shooters(non -members) would take precedent over local,veteran , active ,contributing B.C.R.A members trying to promote a class with obvious interest and excitement and a potential for a long term payoff in the way of increased membership and participation nor can I see how figure 12 and figure 14 targets have anything to do with ICFRA Targets or why there would be a reluctance (although that being said I have a very good idea who might be contributing to said reluctance and letting personal bias work and influence events behind the scenes) - I appreciate you incorporating the Proposed F class Tac in the running of the V-Bulls Match in Kamloops( a club level event) a start I suppose however there is a very limited number of TAC shooters in that region with the majority of B.C.R.A members interested in this new Proposed F class sub class are from the coast and I would venture to guess less likely to travel . obviously this is a topic for discussion and possible Vote at the B.C.R.A. AGM Thank you once again Ian

Regards
Ed
 
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Trial Run

Gentlemen; May I suggest you first decide how a combined TR, F-Class and Tactical shoot would be run. I know, I know, each discipline would shoot on thier target of choice but the devil is always in the details and you should sit down nose to nose and work this out.

I still think that a performance based classification system for F-Class would solve most of our concerns. Anyone would be allowed to compete regardless of their equipment so long as they followed the rules of engagement.....but I digress.

Asking BCRA at the last minute to run a Tac shoot experiment during their high profile 4 day Championship is asking a bit too much. The two day regional championship on July 18/19th would be a better venue for this trial but time to put this together has past. Ian's offer to accommodate the TAC shooters during his Kamloops shoot seems to be a good place to start working the kinks out. With the results of that shoot in the bag you can then work on the BRCA match directors to make room for the TAC competitors during both the 2010 Regional and Provincial Championships.

In the spirit of fairness maybe the Tactical directors could make room for F-Class competitors during their annual shoot.

Regards

Aubrey
 
Banished said:
Gentlemen; May I suggest you first decide how a combined TR, F-Class and Tactical shoot would be run. I know, I know, each discipline would shoot on thier target of choice but the devil is always in the details and you should sit down nose to nose and work this out.

I still think that a performance based classification system for F-Class would solve most of our concerns. Anyone would be allowed to compete regardless of their equipment so long as they followed the rules of engagement.....but I digress.

Asking BCRA at the last minute to run a Tac shoot experiment during their high profile 4 day Championship is asking a bit too much. The two day regional championship on July 18/19th would be a better venue for this trial but time to put this together has past. Ian's offer to accommodate the TAC shooters during his Kamloops shoot seems to be a good place to start working the kinks out. With the results of that shoot in the bag you can then work on the BRCA match directors to make room for the TAC competitors during both the 2010 Regional and Provincial Championships.

In the spirit of fairness maybe the Tactical directors could make room for F-Class competitors during their annual shoot.

Regards

Aubrey
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Hello Aubrey,

First off we have been discussing this NEW Sub Class since the end of the 2008 TAC MATCH, and details were discussed at the AGM in November. -we have on several occasions been told we would work out the details last time was a couple weeks before our TAC shoot in fact the FClass Champs were brought up and a new sub class's was announced at the Service rifle competition by the service rifle/TR Director and F Class TR Champ Match director there is nothing last minute about this ,again . PLEASE do not ASSUME this is a last minute request or something that we just decided to pursue on a whim, Targets have already been discussed scoring has been discussed and as far as fairness is concerned PLEASE give me a break local guys want to shoot and participate - out of town cops and firemen(nothing against police or firefighters) that we will never see again get priority PLEASE don't start with the Fairness Guilt trip B.S .Also Are you telling me all 96 positions are full Aubrey ? IAN ? I think it is pointless to discuss further details about the B.C.R.A and any internal issues on the INTERNET I think the appropriate venue to discuss this further is at the AGM and establish once and for all How the B.C.R.A. Membership feels about the issue at hand(Locals getting bumped so out of towner's can shoot) as well as establishing a committee to deal with details and time lines regarding F Class TAC and give appropriate definitive directions to all those concerned (Providing the Membership wants it /votes for it of course) See you at the AGM . I have worn down my single typing finger and withdraw from any further involvement in this discussion to nurse said finger.

Regards

Ed
 
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