Updated: Incorporating Tactical Rifle shooters into F-Class Matches

mysticplayer said:
With the type of quality rigs I have seen in tac rifle, the only difference between these and a F/F is a STOCK.
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Presumably the majority of the tac rifles will be repeaters and the F/Farq or F/Restricted ones will be single shots, but what sort of stock differences beyond that do you have in mind? Is there anything about any of the tac rifle stocks you are thinking about that would prevent them from being fully, 100% competitive in F/F or F/R, i.e. a change of stock might actually help to win a match, or is it just a case of something different looking?

(BTW I don't know if BCRA is offering the F/Restricted classification or not, but it is even more closely suited to most tactical rifles than F/Farq is. F/R allows any bullet weight, so you don't end up telling a guy with a .308 that shoots 168s and 175 extremely well that he can't shoot that way. Also, only bipods are allowed as a front rest (well, technically, slings are too), i.e. no BR front pedestal rest, which matches what people would likely be shooting. About the only thing that F/Restricted keeps out is non-.223/.308s, or unusually heavy rifles. If the BCRA has developed a particular definition of a "tactical rifle" class, which I suspect they have, I would be curious to learn where it differs from an "F/R" rifle.)
 
This assumes there is no other 'tactical' or restricted class at a match. Only orig rule book F/Farq's.

Since you can have a 18.5lbs weight, an ability to ballast would be useful. You would not want something that heavy for run and gun. Removable weights would be another option.

The repeater wouldn't matter as you could put in a single shot follower. I shoot a repeater action with a follower. Works just fine.

The big one would be whether the shooter wanted to use a front pedestal rest. For me, a lousy bipod shooter, it is huge. Of course, a remple skipod would be pretty much the same thing but limit how heavy the rifle could be.

If using a pedestal rest, going with a 3" wide BR style stock with a flatter rear stock would aid in tracking. So you end up with a short barreled F(O) looking rig in a 308 or 223. Consistency of tracking is going to pay dividends over the course of a match.

You only need to pull one shot 1/4 min off course.....

I consider stock shape, fit, and tracking one of the most important aspects of any F class or precision minded rifle. I always have a stock best suited for the task and rules. I also focus on the best rests to maximize my shooting potential.

So unless the class restricts to bipods only, which should exclude the Remple and Sinclair pods, why not get all the advantages you can?

The quality of barrel and action tuning on many tuned Tact rigs are superb and every bit as accurate as a F/F.

If there is a class catering to the planform of a tact rifle, AWESOME. More better...

Jerry
 
The premise of the tactical class will be what is used in the BC Tac Rifle Match rules. The big differences are the styles of rests and the targets used.

Our plan is to utilize fig 11, 12 or 14 targets, with plenty of tolerance for scoring. In Kamloops we will also have a factory class, so a Sako TRG shooter could currently compete in tactical, F-R or factory, so the choice is whether they want a 1moa, .5MOA or a military target to shoot at.

This is a work in progress and the last thing i want to see is the fun factor eliminated through too many pedantic rules.

The best way to cultivate this is to obtain feedback from those who participate. We all make or break these matches.

Anyway, here are the basic BC Tac Rifle Rules...

2.04 Rifles :
1 - Tactical Rifle:
a. Current issue Police, Military or Military surplus type sniper rifles.
b. Calibers - .223 / 5.56, 308 / 7.62, .303, 30-06, 7.62x54.
c. Actions - Any
d. Barrel length - 686mm/27 inch maximum.
e. Weight - 8.25kg/ 18.15 lbs maximum. with all attachments (Bipod, stock pack, sling etc.)
f. Rifle must have internal or external magazine.
g. Rifles must meet the minimum triggerpull of - 1kg/2.2 lbs.

2.01. Equipment Rules,General:
.
a. Rifle Rests - acceptable rests: slings, bipods, rucksack, dragbag, monopods, your spotter, a sand sock, your hand or Shooting gloves meeting DCRA TR rules.
b. Forbidden rests include - Bunny ear bags, Shooting cradles, sleds, tripods, return to battery setups and the Sinclair Intl. style Bipod.
c. Slings - no limitations on type or style.
d. Mercury recoil reducers - Allowed either class.
e. Flash suppressors - limited to factory production rifles that are originally equipped with one.
f. Muzzle brakes - prohibited on all rifles due to safety concerns caused by positional shooting.
 
Obtunded said:
This is a work in progress and the last thing i want to see is the fun factor eliminated through too many pedantic rules.

[snip]

a. Current issue Police, Military or Military surplus type sniper rifles.
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I assume you're trying to weed out purpose-built target rifles in drag, but I have to ask, why bother with this, or at least with its wording? E.g. if I show up with a Sako TRG-21, that's presumably completely within the spirit of the rules. But what if it isn't a current issue military or police sniper rifle (I realize it probably is, somewhere - so what about if I have a .308 Win M70 Varmint rifle, or somesuch?)

Perhaps people might be scared off by the possibility of someone bringing in something far better than their gear, but I don't think somebody with a first-rate tactical rifle needs to feel the slightest bit worried about having a second-rate piece of kit at all (and to a certain extent, match designers can design matches so that anything better than a 1/2 MOA rifle doesn't really buy you much advantage at all).

I wonder if this rule is designed in response to problems that have been had in the past, or out of concern of problems that might otherwise arise?

b. Calibers - .223 / 5.56, 308 / 7.62, .303, 30-06, 7.62x54.
c. Actions - Any
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Very good choices. Nice touch to see a few "morally equivalent" cartridges added to .223/.308

d. Barrel length - 686mm/27 inch maximum.
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Also a good idea. Though it's kind of surprising just how long you have to go in order to include all the tactical rifles out there. There really isn't a hill of beans difference between a 27" barreled .308 and a 30" barreled .308,

[QUOTE[e. Weight - 8.25kg/ 18.15 lbs maximum. with all attachments (Bipod, stock pack, sling etc.)
f. Rifle must have internal or external magazine.
g. Rifles must meet the minimum triggerpull of - 1kg/2.2 lbs.
[/QUOTE]

Good definitions and choices.

What would you think of the effects of allowing people to shoot single shot target rifles as well (e.g. permit them to use 30" barrels, and no magazines), provided that they are limited to .223 Rem, or .308 Win with max 155 bullets? Would this draw some (or any?) fullbore shooters in? Would it turn off existing tactical rifle shooters?

a. Rifle Rests - acceptable rests: slings, bipods, rucksack, dragbag, monopods, your spotter, a sand sock, your hand or Shooting gloves meeting DCRA TR rules.
b. Forbidden rests include - Bunny ear bags, Shooting cradles, sleds, tripods, return to battery setups and the Sinclair Intl. style Bipod.
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How would you react to a purpose built fancypants bipod that was lightweight, but deployed big and wide-footed like the Sinclair, but folded into a stowable form (i.e. it could arguably be used tactically)? Would this be considered within the spirit, or just an arms-race tangent best avoided?

c. Slings - no limitations on type or style.
d. Mercury recoil reducers - Allowed either class.
e. Flash suppressors - limited to factory production rifles that are originally equipped with one.
f. Muzzle brakes - prohibited on all rifles due to safety concerns caused by positional shooting.
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Have you been confronted with sound supressors, or do you have an idea of how you might respond to that if the question came up? (FWIW the US recently asked that they be considered to be allowed for international F-Class rules. After some debate it was decided to not allow them, because they are illegal in several of the fullbore countries. While this may well have been the right decision to use for internationally conducted F-Class matches, some US shooters were not pleased with it, and I think with some justification, but there you have the difficulties of rulesmaking).
 
If you, really want to get to know your tac rifle or rifles. For eg.. 600M zero with a RH of 60% temp of 23C with 1/2 minute of wind at an altitude of 500M or 300m zero at 10C RH of 90%. All of these have been match condition at the BCRA sniper matches. Just come and shoot with us on a F-class match. The target does not lie. I guarantee that your standing at the next years BCRA tac match will improve measurably with a little f-class practice. I believe this would be true for LE guys as well. They are all welcome shoot with us.

I shot my first BCRA "sniper match" in 1996 and finished at the bottom of the list. I had to figure out how am I going to get a handle on this long range shooting. So Steve Southwell and I started shooting F-class. Our scores continued to improve in 1999 I believe steve took 1st. in 2000 we took 1st. in the team and I placed 2nd in the grand agg. Steve coming in first. This is all because we really had a handle on our rifles because of the f-class practice and experience.
 
Dan, The purpose is to create a match where tactical shooting enthusiasts can come with the equipment they have on hand and have fun, They know the rules and nothing will come out of left field to make them stomp away mad.

The TRG shooter, the AI shooter, the PGW shooter and the M-24 shooter will be able to sign-up for tactical of F-R. The difference will be the target. Having said that, the shooter will have to have acouterments that match the class in which he is shooting. The "Factory" class will be a different story... the spirit of that class will be to allow hunting rifles and varmint rifles a class of their own, but rifles such as the Savage F-Class and XR-100 are going to have to shoot F. I may have to refine the list of exclusions for the factory class, but tactical is pretty straight forward.

the same comments apply to the Savage 308's, Tikkas and the many "tactical" rifles out there. Am I going to demand proof that they are on the nomenclature of some sniper organization? nope.

Kamloops is no trigger pulling contest. The great equalizer will be skill, not guns. As Brent alludes, the F-Class arena is a fantastic place to hone shooting skill, no matter what your rifle.
 
There is no reason the F-tactical can't shoot the new ICFRA target. If the T/R, F (open) and F(restrict) all shot it, why not extend the invitation.

No need for different targets.
 
Obtunded said:
Anyway, here are the basic BC Tac Rifle Rules...

2.04 Rifles :
1 - Tactical Rifle:
a. Current issue Police, Military or Military surplus type sniper rifles.
b. Calibers - .223 / 5.56, 308 / 7.62, .303, 30-06, 7.62x54.
c. Actions - Any
d. Barrel length - 686mm/27 inch maximum.
e. Weight - 8.25kg/ 18.15 lbs maximum. with all attachments (Bipod, stock pack, sling etc.)
f. Rifle must have internal or external magazine.
g. Rifles must meet the minimum triggerpull of - 1kg/2.2 lbs.

2.01. Equipment Rules,General:
.
a. Rifle Rests - acceptable rests: slings, bipods, rucksack, dragbag, monopods, your spotter, a sand sock, your hand or Shooting gloves meeting DCRA TR rules.
b. Forbidden rests include - Bunny ear bags, Shooting cradles, sleds, tripods, return to battery setups and the Sinclair Intl. style Bipod.
c. Slings - no limitations on type or style.
d. Mercury recoil reducers - Allowed either class.
e. Flash suppressors - limited to factory production rifles that are originally equipped with one.
f. Muzzle brakes - prohibited on all rifles due to safety concerns caused by positional shooting.
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I have never really understood these rules. I mean "Tactical rifle" is to imply that tactic's are to be used. IE. they are to be used against a foe, theoretically or practically. If I was a Tactical professional I would like to see all these things in use, to see if there is any tactical advantage or not. You maybe up against this equipment one day. I can't see anything above that really give any one a real advantage. I've won F-class championships with a Remington 700 and Harris bipod.
 
Gunsmoke said:
There is no reason the F-tactical can't shoot the new ICFRA target. If the T/R, F (open) and F(restrict) all shot it, why not extend the invitation.

No need for different targets.
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And yet, many Service Rifle / Sniper Rifle / Precision Rifle / Tactical Rifle shooters, don't like shooting on "round targets". Even if they're "wrong" to think so, unless and until they change their mind, they don't seem like they want to. So I can certainly see the point of offering them their preferred targetry, if that's what it takes to get more shooters. Go ahead and try to get them to change their minds and have them shoot with us on round targets, I'm with you on that, it's good for all of us. But, one way or another, let's get more of us shooting, shooting well, and even shooting together.

Now that I've offended that side of the house, I move to the other... ;-)

At the same time, many fullbore shooters (TR and F-Class) are bothered/horrified/miffed at "them Rambos" shooting "human form targets". Which can lead to real silliness:

I was having a look at this web page:

http://www.owrpc.co.uk/page.php?14

... and was not surprised to read:

When shooting at Bisley, humanoid targets are not permitted. The
NRA provides a range of Disruptive Pattern (DP) targets for
Civilian Service Rifle competitions. DP11 is equivalent to
Figure 11, DP12 to Figure 12, etc.
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But what did surprise me was when I had a look at the "DP11" and "DP14"
targets immediately below.

I know that I can sleep soundly at night now... !

(Now is it just me, or does the DP11 target suggest Wookie Infantry to
anybody else?)
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I hope that we never get into banning humanoid targets, or going all PC on it. Even though my preferred targets are nice big round black aiming marks (hey, I'm selfish, I like a good sight picture! ;-) with circular rings inside, preferably very small and challenging rings.
 
How about we all just be happy another shooting discipline is taking off and getting more & more popular, and wants to be recognized at other matches...............

If it takes a different style of target or rifle to get more shooters out competing, what's the big deal????? :confused: :rolleyes:

From what I see looking at the results page on the BCRA site, The Tacticial Rifle Championship is getting twice the attendance of the TR and F-Class Championships (2008 had 28 shooters total.........2008 Tac Rifle Championship had around 60 shooters...IIRC....)............The Only Match that comes close that I see is the Frosty Farky match in Kamloops.....

The Tactical Rifle Championship has been growing every year under the direction of the new directors ( Thanks Mike Cook & Ed Begg!!!)......and with the prize table reaching $22,000.00 this year and EVERY competitor taking home a prize, I can see it continue to grow until we max out at our limit of 96 entries......:rockOn:

Just my $0.02......

SKBY.:wave:
 
Skullboy said:
How about we all just be happy another shooting discipline is taking off and getting more & more popular, and wants to be recognized at other matches...............

If it takes a different style of target or rifle to get more shooters out competing, what's the big deal????? :confused: :rolleyes:

From what I see looking at the results page on the BCRA site, The Tacticial Rifle Championship is getting twice the attendance of the TR and F-Class Championships (2008 had 28 shooters total.........2008 Tac Rifle Championship had around 60 shooters...IIRC....)............The Only Match that comes close that I see is the Frosty Farky match in Kamloops.....

The Tactical Rifle Championship has been growing every year under the direction of the new directors ( Thanks Mike Cook & Ed Begg!!!)......and with the prize table reaching $22,000.00 this year and EVERY competitor taking home a prize, I can see it continue to grow until we max out at our limit of 96 entries......:rockOn:

Just my $0.02......

SKBY.:wave:
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Agree totally.
 
X3

DCRA spoke to the fact that their memberships are declining and they have trouble attracting new shooters to the national matches. There was even a dire prediction that the DCRA could cease to exist in a year or two if the trend continues.

I am all for tradition, but I will not cut off my nose to spite my face. Extending the challenge to Tactical shooters to come out and try shooting with us F-types and making conditions familiar to them is the best way I can think of to open our doors.

Shooting Discipline snobbery has no place in my sport.
 
Obtunded said:
X3

DCRA spoke to the fact that their memberships are declining and they have trouble attracting new shooters to the national matches. There was even a dire prediction that the DCRA could cease to exist in a year or two if the trend continues.

I am all for tradition, but I will not cut off my nose to spite my face. Extending the challenge to Tactical shooters to come out and try shooting with us F-types and making conditions familiar to them is the best way I can think of to open our doors.

Shooting Discipline snobbery has no place in my sport.
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I would love to try F Class. Although my rifle is more suited towards to tactical type shooting (a custom 308), I still would love to compete in any match because if you like shooting and have a passion for it, you will still learn a ton and improve you overall shooting, and also meet some new people/friends. I have only shot in a couple of competitions but I am hooked.
 
Skullboy said:
How about we all just be happy another shooting discipline is taking off and getting more & more popular, and wants to be recognized at other matches...............

If it takes a different style of target or rifle to get more shooters out competing, what's the big deal????? :confused: :rolleyes:

From what I see looking at the results page on the BCRA site, The Tacticial Rifle Championship is getting twice the attendance of the TR and F-Class Championships (2008 had 28 shooters total.........2008 Tac Rifle Championship had around 60 shooters...IIRC....)............The Only Match that comes close that I see is the Frosty Farky match in Kamloops.....

The Tactical Rifle Championship has been growing every year under the direction of the new directors ( Thanks Mike Cook & Ed Begg!!!)......and with the prize table reaching $22,000.00 this year and EVERY competitor taking home a prize, I can see it continue to grow until we max out at our limit of 96 entries......:rockOn:

Just my $0.02......

SKBY.:wave:
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In the 90's there was 96+ for the BCRA sniper matches when Len Grinnel and Whitey ran the matches. The guys (Mike and Ed) are doing a great job no doubt, but they still have to increase by 50% to get close to what I used to be.
One Tactical match with 60 for the BCRA, compared to 21+ matches with 20 to 40 or more. I think that the F-class get a lot more shooting in.
 
Marksmen said:
In the 90's there was 96+ for the BCRA sniper matches when Len Grinnel and Whitey ran the matches. The guys (Mike and Ed) are doing a great job no doubt, but they still have to increase by 50% to get close to what I used to be.
One Tactical match with 60 for the BCRA, compared to 21+ matches with 20 to 40 or more. I think that the F-class get a lot more shooting in.
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Ah, but if you also have a Tactical Class, I bet you would get a decent turnout of shooters coming out that would rival the current F-Class numbers.......

I was shooting the "sniper" match back in the mid 1990's and remember the large turnouts.........Len & Aubrey eventually relinquished running the match and that started a downhill attendance spiral..........Now with Mike & Ed at the Helm, attendance is coming back up, and hopefully next year we will be close to the 96 shooter limit.......

I still don't see what the issue is........a Group of shooters would like to see their own class.........that would mean more shooters coming out to the 21+ matches each year.........More shooters coming out means a larger membership for the BCRA/DCRA......

Obtunded has a great idea to keep the shooting sports alive and interesting to new shooters.........most of the guys I shoot with have no interest in shooting TR, and very little interest in Shooting F-Class............If adding a Tac Rifle Class will bring more shooters out, then it should at least be tried...........
 
Classes for "F"

Discussion surrounding the various existing and proposed classes for the ”F”-Class discipline shows no early sign of resolution. A solution, sooner than later, would be nice.

The concern about F-Class becoming an equipment race I think comes a little too late. The race probably started in China around the year 1050 A.D. shortly after black powder was invented and will continue without end. We will not stop it, nor should we try. We should rejoice in our advancements.

Back to our topic of classes for “F”-Class. Because our equipment keeps evolving it will be difficult to base our classes only on equipment criteria. Other shooting disciplines have sorted their classes into various score levels. I suggest we examine the possibility to ignore the equipment and caliber used and consider dividing “F”-Class competitions into four score levels such as;

“Greenshot” – the shooter qualifies in this category only for his/her 1st official competition and then moves on to the next level for the next competition.

“Sharpshooter” – competitor remains in this Class until they either win an official competition in this class or have posted an average score of 90% or better in the previous year - at which time they move up one class.

“Expert” – competitor remains in this Class until they either win two official competitions in this class or have posted an average score of 95% or better in the previous year – at which time they move up one class.

“Master” –competitor has posted an average score of 95% or better in the previous year.

I have not done a detailed analysis of the above percentages. Actually they are only a wild assed guess that will likely need refinement over time.

If we use something like the above to separate our Classes the equipment controversy disappears. “F” Open, “F” Restricted, “F” Hunter, “F” Tactical etc, etc, all become “F” Class with the shooters skill and equipment capabilities sorting themselves. Everyone now competes on a level field.

The Class names used here will look familiar to many and have plain and simply been stolen for this exercise. We can use Class 1, Class 2, Class 3 and Class 4 for all I care.

All of this may have been discussed previously – if so lets talk about it again. Will this work? What are your thoughts and concerns?

Regards

Aubrey
 
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As long as I can compete the same way I do in the Tac Rifle Championships, with the same targets, and full magazines......I don't care what the classes are.........

If I have to be "PC" and shoot bulls eye type targets and load only one round, then I will probably pass and just shoot our one or 2 Championship matches (one mainland, one Island...).........and I know others who think along the same lines.........
 
Skullboy said:
As long as I can compete the same way I do in the Tac Rifle Championships, with the same targets, and full magazines......I don't care what the classes are.........

If I have to be "PC" and shoot bulls eye type targets and load only one round, then I will probably pass and just shoot our one or 2 Championship matches (one mainland, one Island...).........and I know others who think along the same lines.........
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If you are asking Ian to have a seperate Tactical competition alongside his "F" Class competition I suspect that won't fly because of logistical considerations. It would be the same logistical nightmare to ask Mike & Ed to run an "F" Class competition alongside their Tactical matches. I don't think these two disciplines are compatible on the same range at the same time.

"F" Class competitors would love to have the Tactical boys shoot in their matches but only if they want to.

Regards

Aubrey
 
Skullboy, the single load thing is simply because most (if not all) F Class rifles are single shot designs. As far as I understand the rules we can still load our mags and feed from them. Although my TRG-22 feeds just fine as a single shot, loaded through the ejection port, some of the Tac Rifles don't though.
I don't care about the targets honestly. a scoring ring is a scoring ring.
 
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