- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Raining, miserable day.
Nothing to do but ##### about a few FPS.
Nothing to do but ##### about a few FPS.
what caliber for my new sheep rifle
- Thread starter Bigbear
- Start date
Nor did "Karimojo" have to leave civilization to go and shoot up to 25 elephants in one day. (pssst, the topic is sheep rifles though, and Bell didn't kill any Dalls)
And most of my Big Horn tags come over the counter still today. My point is, that arguing that the 280 AI is ballistically superior to the venerable .270 is comparing Grannies to Macintosh, cause they are both apples.
Personally, I don't know what I would choose between the two. Probably a .270 Gibbs.
For the record my new sheep rifle is the .284 with the groups I posted. And I wouldn't hunt an elephant with a 7mm, even if you put Rigby behind it.
I doubt your mental stamina SJ. I posted the whole post I made you are making one claim out of. I was pointing out the validity of a cartridge, and all you can dig out of it is the tiny little quote you keep repeating. Stop grinding your organ man, the monkey is dead tired. And are you making the finite statement that Bell shot more elephants than anyone that ever existed? And you do realize that he also used the .303 British and favored the .318 Westly-Richards over any other cartridge he used, right?
Thank you.Now you too have proven rem338win wrong.
Nope.
I stated that I didn't see the RL22 data in the new manual. Reread my post. Chuck says it's there, so I guess it's there. So now I have looked and found it:
Remarks: compressed load
140 Nosler Alliant RL-22 64.0 3,265
Remarks: maximum load; compressed load; most accurate load tested
140 Nosler Alliant RL-22 62.0 3,153
Remarks: compressed load
(p.s. this is a cut and paste)
I also posted that the founder's Grandson stated that all of their testing is with a 26" Wiseman barrel. Sorry I didn't look back to the ninety's (when he was likely a teenager) for a different barrel length. Feel free to take a picture of the RL22 load they have in that old amnual for us too if you please.
You never seem to face a direct approach head on do you. You try to jog around the statement of facts. Still weak man, still weak.
You completely lost sight of the fact that you made the statement that the .280 AI will do 150fps better than the .270 with 10 more grains on the projectile. I proved you wrong. Boo-hoo.
That is not quite what you posted earlier.What you posted earlier was.
Currently they may very well be testing with a 26" barrel,but you plainly stated that "ALL " of their testing for the 280AI has been done with the "SAME 26" "barrel.
Which has been proven to be an incorrect statement.Or do you still dispute that fact?Sure the picture is not from the most recent Nosler manual,but it was printed long after most of O'Connors sheep hunting was done.Is O'Connors experience no longer relevant because it is dated?
So now you are posting that the data is present,but due to your poor reading comprehension,you were unable to find it until now?
If it took until now to find the R-22 data,I guess you are tired.
That was made quite evident when you later denied posting that Bell didn't kill any Dalls.At least I hope that you denied making the previous post due to being tired.The only alternative is that you were purposely lying.
Using the latest Nosler data on their website.280AI with 140gr bullet 3265fps compared to the 270win mag with 130gr bullet at 3102fps.The difference is 163fps.
And you will notice that when I posted that statement,I was simply using the Nosler data as printed,with no reference to barrel length and with no assumptions or corrections to compensate for any difference in barrel length.As such,the statement was entirely correct.
Your own claim was:
Using the Nosler data again using comparable bullet weights in both cartridges,the 280AI delivers 3265fps with a 140gr bullet compared to 3018 with a 140gr bullet.The difference is 247fps.
Even if you take barrel length into consideration,and apply a correction of 60fps for the 2" of barrel length,that still leaves 187fps.
Last edited:
And that was what he stated. I am sure he wasn't involved in the testing when they did the testing for your manual from the 90's, like I said. You are dancing again.
This statement is ridiculous. Do you seriously think this way? Your ability to reason is stunted in that case, and your still dancing circles.
So now you are posting that the data is present,but due to your poor reading comprehension,you were unable to find it until now?
No my reading comprehension is just fine, I just didn't care to look hard enough. Your nitpicking again because the facts are against you.
If it took until now to find the R-22 data,I guess you are tired.
That was made quite evident when you later denied posting that Bell didn't kill any Dalls.At least I hope that you denied making the previous post due to being tired.The only alternative is that you were purposely lying.
Nothing was evident in my statement as a whole which is why you are still refusing to use it in context. I didn't lie about anything, I made it clear that Bell made his name as a Ivory Hunter, and O'Connor as a gun scribing sheep enthusiast. Maybe we should question your reading comprehension?
And I pointed out that you skewed the facts to make the 280AI looked "improved" as that was not the fastest speed recorded in the manual for the .270. I also pointed out the other significant scientific fact that the 2" of barrel will increase the 280AI's velocity's in the manual by up to 100fps.
And you also posted that the 280AI was 150fps faster with a 10gr heavier bullet, which in context of your post was an absolute statement. My statement about Bell was comparative. That's the difference.
If you can prove by any way of standard means of comparison (ie same barrel length, etc) that the 280AI is 150fps faster with a 140gr bullet than the 270 Winchester with a 130gr bullet, then I'll drop it. This is the original basis of argument, and do to the fact that you are wrong you keep dragging this down weak rabbit trails.
Oh and to add to it John Barsness used a 26" Shaw barrel in a .270 Winchester an a Remington 700 to push 130gr bullets over 3300fps with the standard 60grs of H4831sc and a 140gr bullet over 3200fps with the same said powder I believe. SO again the point of your contention is moot.
Lagging in your ballistics study isn't good for a gunnut.(see new note below).
More legitimate proof that the 280AI is a neato cartridge that by no means holds the .270 in its shadow for you. The Barsness article previously mentioned is in Rifle's Handloader No.222 in an Article called "The .270 Winchester Long". And I quote:
" Experimentation started with 130-grain Hornady SSTs......These were loaded into new Winchester cases, using CCI 200 primers and Hodgdon H-4831, which has been the standard .270 powder ever since Jack O'Connor.....working up to the long time standard .270 load of 60 grains of H4831.....several other rifles were shot over the chronograph to make sure it was running properly. The first three 100-yard shots with the "long .270" measured .56 inch center to center and the chronograph averaged 3336fps at 15 feet. When converted to muzzle velocity this translates to just about 3350fps. Whew!"
"Some 150 grain Hornady Spire Points also grouped under an inch at just over 3100fps, using 57 grains of H4831. I'll bet 140 grain Fail Safes will crowd 3200fps, and 160 grain Partitions might break 3000fps."
Sorry I was wrong, he didn't shoot the 140's, he just made a very educated estimate. H4831 is still a great powder but no the fastest in the .270 anymore. Imagine if he used one of the faster one, hmmm? I won't pick over 34fps though.....
Nosler Manual 6:
.270 Winchester
Warning! Notes: rifle: barrel: Shilen; length: 24"; twist: 1-10"; case: Winchester; primer: Fed. 210; bullets: 130 grain Nosler Solid Base Ballistic Tip (yellow), CT Ballistic Silvertip, Partition Spitzer or AccuBond; USE MAXIMUM LOADS WITH CAUTION
Remarks: most accurate load tested; most accurate powder tested
130 Nosler Winchester W-760 54.0 3158
130 Nosler Hodgdon H-4831sc 59.0 3124
.280 Ackley Improved
Warning! Notes: rifle: barrel: Wiseman; length: 26"; twist: 1-9"; case: Nosler; primer: Fed. 210; maximum SAAMI overall cartridge length: 3.330"; bullets: 140 grain Nosler Solid Base Ballistic Tip (red), CT Ballistic Silvertip, Partition Spitzer or AccuBond; use maximum loads with caution
Remarks: most accurate load tested
140 Nosler Hodgdon H-4831sc 62.5 3,179
140 Nosler Alliant RL-19 63.0 3,257
140 Nosler Alliant RL-22 64.0 3,265
and...
150 Nosler Alliant RL-22 61.5 3,095
150 Nosler IMR IMR-7828 63.0 3,107
160 Nosler Hodgdon H-4831sc 59.0 2,969
160 Nosler Accurate AAC-3100 59.0 3,013
Last edited:
Whether or not he was present,the testing did take place,and the data with the 24" barrel did get printed in the Nosler manual.Or are you denying that fact?In either case,Nosler did testing with the 280AI and a 24" barrels,so your statement about all of Noslers 280AI testing being done with the same 26" barrel is proven to be incorrect.
I skewed nothing,I simply used the highest velocity for each cartridge and bullet weight posted on the Nosler site.I challenge you to find a higher 270win velocity listed on the Nosler site using the same bullet weight..
Whatever the context, according to the Nosler data as listed on their site,the statement was proven true.
Actually most posted data only shows about 60fps difference for 2" of barrel length.
Who was it that posted
Do you deny posting the statement below?
Do you deny posting the statement below?
If you did post both statements,then by definition you lied.
therefore
is another lie.
Oh, come on. He hasn't used reason yet, and I don't care enough about my internet reputation to stop him. I'm having fun, so what's it to you?
He keeps harping on the same little bits that have nothing with the big picture though doesn't he?
Unlike you,I haven't resorted to posting blatant lies.
Good because posting blatant lies doesn't built much of a reputation.
But at least in your last post,you didn't deny posting lies.That is some progress.
I myself have been having many laughs reading your posts.It's fun watching you get flustered and contradict yourself.It isn't much of a challenge anymore,but the range is closed,and it is raining out.
Unlike you,I haven't resorted to posting blatant lies.
Good because posting blatant lies doesn't built much of a reputation.
But at least in your last post,you didn't deny posting lies.That is some progress.
I myself have been having many laughs reading your posts.It's fun watching you get flustered and contradict yourself.It isn't much of a challenge anymore,but the range is closed,and it is raining out.
I haven't lied about anything and you know it. You sound like the guilty child in a playground scuffle.
I am sorry to hear about the range, but I think the rain has sponged your senses. There is really little to laugh about when the facts have owned you.
That would be lie #3,so much for you making progress.
You are still avoiding the fact that you where proven wrong, and have had to fall back on weakly attacking your personal fabrication. What's the next step, starting another account to help back yourself up?
What progress do I need to make? I have a sound conclusion that O'Connor is famous for writing about killing sheep, Bell is a legend who wrote about Africa and the Ivory hunts, and the ballistic advantages of the .280AI vs the .270WCF truly come down to bore size and 50-100fps of velocity at best.
You can't argue that intelligently so you have barricaded yourself in a quagmire of trying to label me a liar by using quotes out of context and forming ghosts in your mind about how a 24" barrel a decade ago makes a difference on this subject.
I am going to clean my truck and have a cold beer now. But maybe the beer isn't cold by your standards, or I said truck instead of Dodge Ram, so that could be the 4th lie for you to pounce on like a starved dog on a fetid bone.
Keep trying though, we are all eagerly awaiting your next effort. Did you receive a lot of those participation ribbons as a child too?
Arrrgggghhhhh!!
That post is good humour, I was hoping someone would bite and it was a newbie at that...
Oh, well I guess I'll take my new 416 Ruger and the 300 Barnes' back then....(patter, patter, patter...)
You shoot what you like I figure. Heck I'd build a 4lb 22-243 Middlestead and shoot sheep with 53gr TSX's if I could, and I think a picture of a Ram with an old Shiloh or Remington Rolling Block would look sharp too. But lets not get crazy here.
Speaking of crazy..........
