Just getting into Tactical shooting

nwgdutchie

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I was at the range the other day and a guy from CNG let me shoot his .308 2 groups of 3 and he had a few things done to his Rem 700 LTR.

He let me shoot it a few times and it really hooked me.

I am now looking for a tactical rifle for getting into long range benchrest shooting.

The Remmington R5 or 5R in .308 is kind of the front runner in my mind and I am not sure of why.I talked to Rick? at Alberta Tactical and he reccomended this gun and the Rem 700P which is funny because these were already the guns that I had kind of singled out.

What are some peoples thoughts, pros, cons, to these guns?

Please keep in mind that I am just getting started and I don't understand all the jargon yet so if you use it please just make a side note of what it means!:D

Thanks for all the imput in advance!

NwG Dutchie
 
I'd go with the 700 LTR to start.
And take it from me, don't cheap out on the scope. At the very least, if you can afford it, I'd go with a Nightforce NXS to start.

Then slap a new stock on, change out the barrel, tactical bolt knob, etc...
 
the rem's are a great start I own a couple easy to up grade when skills inprove. if the gun fits you well go with it. If comfortable behind it you will shoot better.
 
the savage rifles are extremely accurate out of the box.

And come with many different stocks, fluted barrels, muzzle breaks, "Accu triggers", the new "Accu Stocks", stainless, blued and I have never seen one that will not shoot better than the guy/girl that ownes it!!

Scott
 
Buy a receiver of your favorite or the cheapest complete rifle you can get and have a gun custom built from it. Every dollar you spend on original stuff is money thrown away if you plan to customize it fully. I wouldn't buy anything high end, I'd have it built. Or buy something used to get started and another to build on, sell the original when the custom gun is finished.
 
If you're just getting into it after getting a taste get something that feels good on you and you can afford.

You truely won't know what you'll like / want until you've logged some trigger time behind the bench.

PS - I love my Rem700P I have a "cost effective" nikon buckmaster on it and it lets me play with the boys all day long.
 
I am not sure if there is a "long range benchrest" organization in Canada. There is however long range target rifle, F Class and precision rifle (sniper) in most provinces. Contact your local Provincial Rifle Association or see the DCRA web page at www.dcra.ca

Tactical Rifle and Benchrest are two different kettles of fish. Tactical rifle are usually mag fed while benchrest rifles are single shot.

While some people will suggest a new stock, action or a scope worth over a grand, nothing will help you shoot better than trigger time and putting plenty of bullets down range. It could take a year or so (and a few thousand rounds) before you figure out you can shoot better than your rifle. By that time you will have figured out if you need a new stock or scope but neither of these will help you shoot better if your barrel is not up to the task.

If I was new to this game of long range shooting ( I'm a Target Rifle shooter) I would start off with a fast twist, heavy barrel .223. Cost about 1/2 the $$$ to reload compared to a .308 and gives up very little if anything to the .308 at long range out to 1000 yards if you use 80 gr bullets. I would bed the action and modify the factory stock if needed, put on a mid priced scope (under a grand) and learn to shoot long range.

But hey, if you have $3-4G you want to spend by all means go for it.
 
I dont want to sound pompass but money is not really the issue.

I don't want to spend 3-4K but what I liked about remmington is the fact that I can get so many different parts so easily to modify the gun.

Also I already own a Remmington and I love the feel of the gun when it shoulders. Remmington kind of has my heart because of how they shoot and feel so that is why I was leaning towards a factory rifle that i was going to do a trigger job and pilliar bed it and really learn to shoot before i get a custom gun. (belive me the self control is tough!)

The reason I am not too interested in .223 is because this not a hunting round that I would be interested in hunting here in BC. This is a legitimate hunting round in BC but I will agree to disagree on the ethics of shooting animals with this small of a caliber.

I am trying to get into municipal policing aswell so the tactical shooting or sniper shooting is what I would be interested in so the benchrest shooting is cool, but I am more intrested in the tactical long range stuff.

Thanks for the great feed back and please keep it coming!

Dutchie
 
I don't feel your being pompass at all about money not being the issue. But now you are throwing "hunting rifle" into the mix of tactial and benchrest. My thought was it would be used strictly for punching paper at long range. What I am trying to say is that one rifle will not fit all the above and be cometitive or practical. While a 17 lbs light benchrest gun is fun off the bench, the fun wears off quickly if you want to lug it into the bush. Benchrest optics are not the ideal hunting scopes.
A tactcal rifle is great for precision matches it would not be competitive in a benchrest match, but you could carry it in the bush for hunting.
So if you want to play all these games and do well with just one rifle, you should look at a Savage. You could set it up with one action and several barrels and bolt faces in different calibers and barrel contours. You could have several stocks for benchrest, tactical and hunting with different scopes for each game. Yes, you could shoot a benchrest match in the morning with a 22 lbs gun. Swap out the barrel, stock and scope and shoot a precision match in the afternoon with a 12 lbs gun. Swap out the barrel scope and stock again and have a 7 lbs hunting rifle for the deer stand that evening on the way home from the range.
 
I don't feel your being pompass at all about money not being the issue. But now you are throwing "hunting rifle" into the mix of tactial and benchrest. My thought was it would be used strictly for punching paper at long range. What I am trying to say is that one rifle will not fit all the above and be cometitive or practical. While a 17 lbs light benchrest gun is fun off the bench, the fun wears off quickly if you want to lug it into the bush. Benchrest optics are not the ideal hunting scopes.
A tactcal rifle is great for precision matches it would not be competitive in a benchrest match, but you could carry it in the bush for hunting.
So if you want to play all these games and do well with just one rifle, you should look at a Savage. You could set it up with one action and several barrels and bolt faces in different calibers and barrel contours. You could have several stocks for benchrest, tactical and hunting with different scopes for each game. Yes, you could shoot a benchrest match in the morning with a 22 lbs gun. Swap out the barrel, stock and scope and shoot a precision match in the afternoon with a 12 lbs gun. Swap out the barrel scope and stock again and have a 7 lbs hunting rifle for the deer stand that evening on the way home from the range.

you make a good point... I guess the hunting aspect really should not be an issue as I have my 30-06 for that.

But long long distance shooting like 1000yds and further, will a .223 hold up? or will I be hard pressed to hit the target from a windage standpoint. I think that the .223 would get pushed around quiet easily at these distances... Is this me over thinking it or is there some validity to the statment?

Thanks for the help.

How do you find the avalibility of parts for your Savage are?

NwG Dutchie
 
nwgdutchie

The 5R :cheers:

If you're average height IE requiring a 13 1/2" length for the stock then you've got it made. If not some minor work to make the stock fit may be required or a different stock.

The 5R is one of those rifles where you don't have to change anything. Just add bases, rings and a scope. Buy some 168 grain Federal Match ammo and you're set. You don't even need to reload for this rifle. I did lower the trigger weight on mine. That being said my groups remained the same, since the trigger was very nice even at the heavier weight.

As for the "stock" barrel being a throw away. Not bloody likely in this case. I have yet to shoot a 5 round group over .5 moa at 100 yards with mine. This includes a 5 round group that I shot cold, no sighters, no warmups, no barrel fouler (it was just barely under .5 moa, while most groups with the fouling/sighter shot are around .4 moa) I've also shot a buddies and his was also a sub .5 moa rifle. The real icing on the cake is the fact that it also shot sub 1" groups at 200 yards with 5 rounds. These are off front and back bags, not benchrest set up. I won't even take mine in to get bedded. I don't want to risk screwing it up.

I was talking up the 5R at a really good local gun store. One of the guys there later received one. This guy is a gunsmith. He did bed it and did some very minor stuff to it. Then went out shot it and had the same results that I've had or slightly better. He told me he was skeptical at first, but it shoots and there's no denying that.

There are few off the shelf rifles that impress me. The 5R was one that really did. I bought a second one after realizing exactly what the 5R really was.

Pros of the 5R:

Remington 700:
1) Stainless steel bead blasted receiver and barrel.
2) 5R rifling (slightly less bullet deformation and easier to clean).
3) 24" bull barrel, great for accuracy, handier than a 26" but better long range velocity than a 20"
4) HS precision stock with aluminum bedding block.
5) Throat set up for 2.8 OAL so you can grab off the shelf match ammo and it shoots as if they were tweaked hand loads
6) 11.25 twist rate which is ideal for 168 and 175 grain match ammo (IE long range precision ammo)

You're actually getting a lot with the 5R for the price. In my opinion this rifle is the one in the Remington line up to buy.
 
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A fast twist .223 with 80 gr bullets will shoot right up there with a .308 shooting 155 gr bullets out to 1000 yards. Stay away from 168's for long range work, they are the worst bullet on the market for anything over 600 yards. They were designed in the 1960's for 300m ISU shooting. They can work at 800 yards, get kind of iffy at 900 yards and are crap at 1000.

Check out http://www.bcrifle.org/
 
you make a good point... I guess the hunting aspect really should not be an issue as I have my 30-06 for that.

But long long distance shooting like 1000yds and further, will a .223 hold up? or will I be hard pressed to hit the target from a windage standpoint. I think that the .223 would get pushed around quiet easily at these distances... Is this me over thinking it or is there some validity to the statment?

Thanks for the help.

How do you find the avalibility of parts for your Savage are?

NwG Dutchie

With present day VLD bullets like the 80gr Berger and Amax, the 223 with an 8 twist can keep up with any 308 and do a decent job staying with larger.

A few weeks back, a group of us went out to do some LR plinking (post is somewhere down this page). I was shooting my Shilen Savage 223 and had no problem keeping up with a 338 LM out to 1450yds.

Of course, it was easier for him to drive the winds and impacts were easily seen but the 223 did make the trip and hit the rocks.

Compared to the 308, the 223 is essentially the same ballistically.

For practising, I cannot think of a better choice. The come ups I used agreed with the other shooters using 175gr MK's - certainly close enough to be 'on target'.

If your goal is to have the chance of doing many different disciplines, take maynards advice and go with the Savage. I have mine set up to go from tactical to F class to hunting by swapping a few parts.

I used to build Rems and they are a nice platform but for versatility, the Savage is a far more economical platform to use.

Set up correctly, the performance rivals the mega dollar custom F class rifles too.

Jerry
 
hahaha yeah I know, I have never don any of this type of shooting and I have only ever been to Mission so I have no clue of how you would shoot the rifle... I see lots of guns on the ground kind of in the prone position.

Like i said I am a newb and just learning about the guns and shooting!

If i dare ask, bench rest shooting is off a bench rest, what it the position of the shooter in tactical shooting??

NwG Dutchie
 
I see your confusion, I was in your position a little over a year ago, so I'll give you some general clarification... Shooting "benchrest" doesn't just mean shooting off a bench - BenchRest (or "BR", as you'll more commonly see around here) implies shooting targets using a highly customized rifle that is generally designed to be shot off of "supports" vs. holding it in your hands. These supports include a "pedestal" adjustable for height (and possibly windage) that supports the front of the rifle (where a bipod would be), whilst the rear is supported by a leathery or synthetic sand/bead-filled pouch (colloquially known as "bunny ears" because of the shape). The goal here is to:
1. Build a BR rifle using extremely tight tolerances and a scope that is very stable
2. Experiment with different casings, powders, bullets and primers to find out which combinations and hand-loading techniques work best with the rifle.
3. Learn to read wind so that all your rounds go into the same spot at the distance you shoot at... There is short range BR (100-200yds) and long range (1000yds).

There are also different categories of BR competitions with different weight restrictions, since BR rifles are relatively very heavy: it's not unusual for it to weigh 20 lbs or more (Google "BR railgun"), even though the calibers used aren't very big (again, relatively speaking). This is not a rifle you can sling up and go to the bush with or take to war... Trigger control is basically the only "physical" marksmanship involved here - you won't be shooting between heartbeats or something, since your finger is the part of your body applying the most pressure on the firearm. The point is to achieve accuracy by means of reading the external conditions (wind, mirage, etc.), the conditions going on in the firearm (heat, fouling, wear, etc.) as well as the cartridge (powder burn rate uniformity, case wall uniformity/malleability, bullet land engagement, etc.) and firearm preparation to ensure consistency throughout. No small chore, I'm sure the BR shooters here can chime in... But it ain't really my cup of tea.

Some categories award the person that has the tightest group, others with the number of rounds closest to bullseye.

So just because you're shooting off of a bench doesn't mean you're shooting BR! ;)

In "tactical" shooting (or sniper matches, whatever), you referred to the position correctly: "prone". People will all understand what you're talking about. But when you sight in your new scope, you're doing it "off the bench", you're not shooting BR. :p

Going prone is also done in service rifle shooting (generally with the aid of a sling), F/TR-class, CIS/UIT 300m, Palma, Bisley, the list is exhaustive. This is where you need to physically control and adjust your point of aim, so the accuracy acheived is generally less than BR, depending on the style of shooting. Prone can mean using a bipod alone, a bipod with a rear bag supporting the stock, or with only your elbows on the ground with the rifle being held up, usually with the help of a sling to keep the jitter down.

As for your selection of a rifle, I'd recommend a heavy-barrelled Savage model 10 with an accu-trigger and accu-stock in .308 Win. Should be versatile enough for tactical shooting and hunting, even though somewhat heavy for the latter, so get a sling to haul it around. Top it off with a Leupold Mark 4 or Nightforce NSX (depending on budget & weight), and I'd say you're set. If you want real versatility, get a quick detach mount so you can switch between a tactical scope and a hunting scope. Don't cheap out on optics.

Enjoy! :)
 
Thanks for the info Redman, I am personally not interested in the Benchrest stuff. I have alot of patiance but I don't have the patiance to tinker and tinker and tinker somemore with the differance in primer to primer or primer to powder or primer to powder to case...

I understand that I am going to have to get the most accurate load possible but I am not looking to try to beat any world records or anything... I am not even sure about Matches or competition shooting yet.

I am definatly excited to look into the Savage lineup and Remmingtom lineup!

NwG Dutchie

One more question: How important is barrel break in? There is a gun that I am looking at and the guy said that he just started to shoot... no break in nothing, and he said that the best he has ever been able to get it to shoot is .75 moa but he also said he is a bad shooter so my question for that gun is it the Shooter?? or is it the gun??
 
A fast twist .223 with 80 gr bullets will shoot right up there with a .308 shooting 155 gr bullets out to 1000 yards. Stay away from 168's for long range work, they are the worst bullet on the market for anything over 600 yards. They were designed in the 1960's for 300m ISU shooting. They can work at 800 yards, get kind of iffy at 900 yards and are crap at 1000.

Check out http://www.bcrifle.org/
Maynard, I was under the understanding that the 168 match king and the 168 International match king were two different bullets? This , BTW, was told to me by someone who shoots neither ISU nor Palma matches.
I never tried to confirm it as I never even considered sticking a 168 ANYTHING in my Palma rifle!:D
Do you know if Seirra add a different 168 bullet?:confused:
Never mind, I just looked at the site - same bullet!!
I'll stick to what works......
Cat
 
One more question: How important is barrel break in? There is a gun that I am looking at and the guy said that he just started to shoot... no break in nothing, and he said that the best he has ever been able to get it to shoot is .75 moa but he also said he is a bad shooter so my question for that gun is it the Shooter?? or is it the gun??
Barrel break in? Donworryaboudit!!
if you are going to buy an accurate barrel, anything sent down the range through it will be accurate.
You may find that a round fired and cleaned MAY result in less copper fouling, but if the rifle is still accurate, I don't care how much copper is in it.
Accuracy is what matters, not whether the rifle is clean or dirty, and some shoot better dirty....
Cat
 
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