Just getting into Tactical shooting

[ceriksson]

I'd go with the 5R. I got one a few months ago and love it.

My first .308 was the 700LTR and still have it, great gun no question and I can't really think of a con for it to be honest, great balance, great feel, I prefer the LTR stock to the 5R stock in the trigger area grip

the 5R came up on the EE with a good price and I jumped on it after reading the reviews on it and everyone elses experiences with it. I love it it is a great rifle

really both rifles are fantastic, but for long range stuff I'd go for the 5R. the LTR is great at 100 and 200y but I haven't really fired it out past there, but I've hit targets at much greater distances with the 5R.

I'm not saying the LTR can't but the 5R was a winner for Remington, I haven't heard anyone else say otherwise.

 

[chemo]

I'd go with the 700 LTR to start.
And take it from me, don't cheap out on the scope. At the very least, if you can afford it, I'd go with a Nightforce NXS to start.

Then slap a new stock on, change out the barrel, tactical bolt knob, etc...

of course, at the very least! nothing less than that.
seriously now, why go with the most expensive as a first scope?

 

[carbonrod]

I'd go with the 5R. I got one a few months ago and love it.

My first .308 was the 700LTR and still have it, great gun no question and I can't really think of a con for it to be honest, great balance, great feel, I prefer the LTR stock to the 5R stock in the trigger area grip

the 5R came up on the EE with a good price and I jumped on it after reading the reviews on it and everyone elses experiences with it. I love it it is a great rifle

really both rifles are fantastic, but for long range stuff I'd go for the 5R. the LTR is great at 100 and 200y but I haven't really fired it out past there, but I've hit targets at much greater distances with the 5R.

I'm not saying the LTR can't but the 5R was a winner for Remington, I haven't heard anyone else say otherwise.

I shoot an LTR to 900m in matches, and sometimes longer elsewhere. A 20inch pipe 308 will keep a 175 gr match king super sonic a ways out there. Knowing what the wind is doing is another matter. :/

Personally, If I were just getting into LR shooting, I'd buy either an LTR, or 5R if I could find them, and failing that, a savage with a Mcmillan A5 stock.

As for a scope, the bushnell 10x mildot is nice if you need tacticool. If not, the a bushnell 5-15x40 works nice. If you have more coin to spend, get a Mark4, NSX, or other more uberscope, but the truth is that you are probably better served putting the cash into powder, and fuel(don't mix them).

 

[rnbra-shooter]

NwG Dutchie, do you reload rifle ammo (or are you interested/willing to)?

If you don't reload, a .308W is pretty much the only way to go. There are a number of different kinds of good match ammo available (though they cost $30-$40 per box of 20).

If you reload, you can learn to make first-rate .308W target ammo for $0.50 to $0.75 per round ($10-$15 per box of 20).

Also if you reload, you can make good .223 match ammo (using high performance 75 grain or 80 grain target bullets) for even less than that. The problem is that commercial heavy bullet .223 match ammo isn't commonly available, as far as I know. So if you want to shoot a .223 at mid-range (500y & 600y) or longer, you pretty much need to make your own ammo.

A .223 might sound "wimpy", but you might find that you learn to shoot well sooner and better using one, that using a .308W. People differ, but it can be a remarkably long chore to learn how to truly master pulling the trigger on a .308W, even in a heavier rifle (which produces less recoil). I've fired 1000+ rounds of .308 target rifle every year for over 15 years, and I still have an incipient flinch that I continue to work on; someday I hope to overcome it and master it.

I'm of the opinion that, if possible, one should not compromise the selection of a rifle by needlessly spec'ing it to be multi-role. If you want a good big-game hunting rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. If you want a good target rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. If you want a good varmint rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. It's probably better to buy two or three rifles (hey, can I be your "enabler"?), each suited for their principal task, than to buy one rifle that can almost-sorta-kinda do it all. Pretty simple really: when in doubt, buy another rifle ;-)

Don't overlook the life-cycle economics of the fact that you might easily fire 3,000 rounds of ammo through your rifle (in a year if you're unbelievably keen, in three years if you shoot an ordinarily-paced match schedule); this ammo will cost you somewhere between $1500 and $6000. In only a year or three, your actual operating expenses (ammo, gas, match fees) will be much greater than the wear and tear and amortization of a $3000 rifle and $2000 scope; heck it'll be more than the outright purchase price of a $1000 rifle and $500 scope. So while you should be sensible about spending money on your gear, also realize that that's not where the money really gets burnt.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

Maynard, I was under the understanding that the 168 match king and the 168 International match king were two different bullets? This , BTW, was told to me by someone who shoots neither ISU nor Palma matches.
I never tried to confirm it as I never even considered sticking a 168 ANYTHING in my Palma rifle!
Do you know if Seirra add a different 168 bullet?
Never mind, I just looked at the site - same bullet!!
I'll stick to what works......
Cat

The Sierra 168 has been through several design generations (three, I think) since it was introduced in the 1960s. It was originally named the "168 International" or somesuch, because it was designed to shoot 300m ISU (which the Americans called "International shooting"). IIRC the first gen was an FMJBT. The design has changed a time or two along the way (first becoming an HPBT, and then the boat tail angle steepening from 9 degrees to today's 11 degrees).

So historically speaking, there "was" a Sierra 168 International, and arguably the current Sierra 168 could be called that too. But as far as I know Sierra has only manufactured one 168 grain match bullet at any particular time.

 

[Holmes]

i have a R5 incoming,hopefully it will live up to all the hype and my expectations

 

[EC]

I know your set on a Remington but a Sako TRG 22 is worth a look as well. I have one and it shoots better than a custom Remington that I paid alot more for.

 

[nwgdutchie]

NwG Dutchie, do you reload rifle ammo (or are you interested/willing to)?

If you don't reload, a .308W is pretty much the only way to go. There are a number of different kinds of good match ammo available (though they cost $30-$40 per box of 20).

If you reload, you can learn to make first-rate .308W target ammo for $0.50 to $0.75 per round ($10-$15 per box of 20).

Also if you reload, you can make good .223 match ammo (using high performance 75 grain or 80 grain target bullets) for even less than that. The problem is that commercial heavy bullet .223 match ammo isn't commonly available, as far as I know. So if you want to shoot a .223 at mid-range (500y & 600y) or longer, you pretty much need to make your own ammo.

A .223 might sound "wimpy", but you might find that you learn to shoot well sooner and better using one, that using a .308W. People differ, but it can be a remarkably long chore to learn how to truly master pulling the trigger on a .308W, even in a heavier rifle (which produces less recoil). I've fired 1000+ rounds of .308 target rifle every year for over 15 years, and I still have an incipient flinch that I continue to work on; someday I hope to overcome it and master it.

I'm of the opinion that, if possible, one should not compromise the selection of a rifle by needlessly spec'ing it to be multi-role. If you want a good big-game hunting rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. If you want a good target rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. If you want a good varmint rifle, figure out what you need, and get one. It's probably better to buy two or three rifles (hey, can I be your "enabler"?), each suited for their principal task, than to buy one rifle that can almost-sorta-kinda do it all. Pretty simple really: when in doubt, buy another rifle ;-)

Don't overlook the life-cycle economics of the fact that you might easily fire 3,000 rounds of ammo through your rifle (in a year if you're unbelievably keen, in three years if you shoot an ordinarily-paced match schedule); this ammo will cost you somewhere between $1500 and $6000. In only a year or three, your actual operating expenses (ammo, gas, match fees) will be much greater than the wear and tear and amortization of a $3000 rifle and $2000 scope; heck it'll be more than the outright purchase price of a $1000 rifle and $500 scope. So while you should be sensible about spending money on your gear, also realize that that's not where the money really gets burnt.

Hey thanks for the info,

I do reload my own ammo for hunting right now, and I reload for all my friends. And as weird as it sounds, after work I kind of enjoy sitting down playng some music and making a few rounds!

Just a little about me, I just started hunting last year and my life has kind of revolved around hunting since last September. I was at the range and a guy from here let me shoot his .308 and it really hooked me. He had a trigger that you pushed forward and it went from a 3lb pull to a 1/2lb pull which I thought was in-genius!

So the Savage is becoming more and more applealing and i think it is more the trigger then the barrel. But my issue is that I have never got to pull the trigger on one.

And I have mispoke earlier about the hunting aspect of the tactical gun i am going to get... I will not be using it as a hunting rifle... but if I have 2x .308 cal then If i want I can build a load in my 30-06 with match grade products and see what it does, I can. What i really ment to say is that I already have .308 calibler components, and I hunt with them, I don't hunt with .223... playing around with different powder to bullet combos in both rifles I think would be fun,

Thanks for all the help

And yes rnbra-shooter you can be my enabler

 

[pazzo]

of course, at the very least! nothing less than that.
seriously now, why go with the most expensive as a first scope?

I bought a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical (made in Japan) for my first 'tactical' scope. It is great and has been accurate out to 1300 yds (with my .308), but not without a 200 kilometer holdover

I've used the Falcon Optics 5.5-25x56 on my friends rifle, and it broke while in a Pelican Case - and he didn't even drop it. Warranty has been an issue with it ever since...

I chose NF because honestly, it is probably the cheapest of the best. After all, it's definitely not a Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender or Premier.

 

[redman]

Thanks for the info Redman, I am personally not interested in the Benchrest stuff. I have alot of patiance but I don't have the patiance to tinker and tinker and tinker somemore with the differance in primer to primer or primer to powder or primer to powder to case...

I understand that I am going to have to get the most accurate load possible but I am not looking to try to beat any world records or anything... I am not even sure about Matches or competition shooting yet.

I am definatly excited to look into the Savage lineup and Remmingtom lineup!

NwG Dutchie

One more question: How important is barrel break in? There is a gun that I am looking at and the guy said that he just started to shoot... no break in nothing, and he said that the best he has ever been able to get it to shoot is .75 moa but he also said he is a bad shooter so my question for that gun is it the Shooter?? or is it the gun??

That's cool, BR isn't my cup-o'-tea either, but you could definetely tweak a tried-and-true primer/casing/bullet/powder combo to your rifle specs (barrel twist & length) and see better results than factory ammo.

As for barrel break-in, I wouldn't bother... I didn't do it, and my rifle shoots to reported specs. Just clean the powder out after each shooting session and apply some lube. When accuracy starts to fall due to copper fouling, give it a good, thorough cleaning; let the firearm "tell" you when it needs to be cleaned. Mine takes about 700 rounds, yours could be very different. I have a buddy who's a metallurgical engineer and he can't see what people are trying to do to an extremely hard metal (a barrel) using very soft metal (a bullet).

of course, at the very least! nothing less than that.
seriously now, why go with the most expensive as a first scope?

There's even more expensive than NF... It's actually not a bad idea, since the scope will likely outlast the firearm.

Hey thanks for the info,

I do reload my own ammo for hunting right now, and I reload for all my friends. And as weird as it sounds, after work I kind of enjoy sitting down playng some music and making a few rounds!

Just a little about me, I just started hunting last year and my life has kind of revolved around hunting since last September. I was at the range and a guy from here let me shoot his .308 and it really hooked me. He had a trigger that you pushed forward and it went from a 3lb pull to a 1/2lb pull which I thought was in-genius!

So the Savage is becoming more and more applealing and i think it is more the trigger then the barrel. But my issue is that I have never got to pull the trigger on one.

And I have mispoke earlier about the hunting aspect of the tactical gun i am going to get... I will not be using it as a hunting rifle... but if I have 2x .308 cal then If i want I can build a load in my 30-06 with match grade products and see what it does, I can. What i really ment to say is that I already have .308 calibler components, and I hunt with them, I don't hunt with .223... playing around with different powder to bullet combos in both rifles I think would be fun,

Thanks for all the help

And yes rnbra-shooter you can be my enabler

For sure, I was impressed with my friend's Savage 10 FCP when he got it... All it needs is a good bedding job, since he's got the McMillan one. The Accu-Stock is the one I would've gone with... Solid aluminium bedding that the action is mounted on, nice and rigid. Just because it's a great target/tactical rifle, doesn't mean you can't use it for some LR hunting - just a thought. You wouldn't necessarily have to compromise, either. Like I said, you could just get a QD scope mount and switch out scopes depending on application.

My 2¢

 

[Mystic Precision]

Cat, in case you have not shot them, the 168gr Amax will go as far as you have elevation for. They have no issue staying stable after going subsonic. Used 12 to 10 twist WAY out there. Gave up on the 308 before the Bergers came along but I have used the 22 VLD's with excellent results.

rnbra-shooter, I gave up on the 308 years ago when the recoil finally did some damage to my shoulder. Now I shoot 6.5's and the reduced recoil and increased ballistics are a nice change of pace. However, I shoot my 223 about 4 to 1.

There a lot of excellent performing scopes for moderate $$. Some may offer better optics then some of the big dollar products. Pays to shop and try different products.

If you already have a 30-06 for hunting, then focus on your tactical/precision rig without compromise. Make it has heavy as you can to reduce recoil - unless you are trying to fit the rules of a specific shooting sport.

A 12lbs rifle is pretty much where a Rem/Sav with scope/bipod will weigh. Ballast it up. The recoil difference is significant even with a few lbs heavier. If you go to 20+lbs, even a 308 is a pussycat for long strings of shooting.

Learn to shoot, not how to manage a flinch.... Been there, done that.

Jerry

PS being one of Savages most vocal fans, I am presently playing with a rifle/accustock and it is not what I had expected. It is a massive improvement over the factory plastic stock BUT it is not as good as the articles have suggested (at least this stock isn't). I am about to bed the action into the stock cause it needs it.

 

[redman]

Mystic, I'd say recoil depends on heavily on the shooters physique and technique. My rifle weighs about 13.5 lbs and it's a .308 Win. and I've never had shoulder problems... Considering he's already got experience with a 30-06 on a (presumably) light huting rifle, the 308 should be alright with him in terms of flinch management.

If he shoots in the brush then, yeah, a 12-13 lb rifle might not be the most comfortable... But if he's got some open space to work with and time to set up the shot, I don't see how it could hurt.

In the long run, a top-notch optic NEVER hurts!

 

[rnbra-shooter]

There's even more expensive than NF... It's actually not a bad idea, since the scope will likely outlast the firearm.

Ahem, you obviously don't shoot on the same ranges I do (perhaps mpwolf will tell you the story of his PGW+Nightforce being backed over by a car while waiting to shoot 900m.... ;-)

 

[Allen Gun Works]

I bought a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical (made in Japan) for my first 'tactical' scope. It is great and has been accurate out to 1300 yds (with my .308), but not without a 200 kilometer holdover

I've used the Falcon Optics 5.5-25x56 on my friends rifle, and it broke while in a Pelican Case - and he didn't even drop it. Warranty has been an issue with it ever since...

I chose NF because honestly, it is probably the cheapest of the best. After all, it's definitely not a Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender or Premier.

Perhaps you could elaborate on your friends issue with the Falcon scope? How exactly did it break and why has warranty been an issue ever since?

I can pretty much guarantee that it was not a production model 5.5-25x56 that was sold by a Canadian authorized reseller, as there are only two of us and mine only shipped a few days ago. I believe that Frontier is still waiting for his order (Marlin, correct me if I am wrong on that one). I can assure you that if the scope was bought from either of us, the warranty would not be an issue.

If it was a pre-production model, that is a different story. They were made and sent out to dealers for evaluation. All of the dealers made recommendations for improvement and Falcon listened carefully to these recommendations and produced what is now the production model of the 5.5-25x56. The pre-production models were made with a two piece tube. This was the number one complaint of dealers and the production models were all given a one piece tube.

I don't mean to seem defensive, but I have sold over 350 of these in the last year and have had only a handful of warranty claims. Every scope that was returned and found to have a manufacturers defect was replaced without question.

 

[Ice-Pick]

New unfired Remington SPS, it got damp.
Case opened in the class room on a damp day and returned to car. Put in house till next day , opened up to bore site scope and found a brown stick with a remington stock on it.
This is as good as it could be cleaned up with oils/cleaners and rags so far.

The 4 Savages that were IN THE RAIN are ok, though.

M.

 

[nwgdutchie]

So i am noticing alot of people talking about the recoil on .308?

From what I understand it is a low recoiling rifle. If the gun is a 12lb gun in .308 the the felt recoil would be significantly lett then my 8lb scoped 30-06 (which I have no problem shooting 50 rounds in a 5 hour sitting while shooting my 45/70 after every 3rd shot.

The felt recoil on my 30-06 is in the ball park of 21lbs
The felt recoil on my 45/70 is about 40lbs


I have also routeinly shoot a 30-378 aswell as his .300 saum of a friend of mines and also a 416 rigby. I feel these guns kick like bloody fricken mules but it is bareable... and enjoyable funny enough.

I an 6 foot tall and I weight 200lb and I am a athletic build.

When I shoot my 30-06 I don't feel or notice any recoil...Others have told my that it is a moderate recoil but i just don't feel it.

The reason I bring this up is because I don't think the recoil would be an issue for me at all... and if it could or would be would a muzzle brake a good option or will it affect the ballistics?

NwG Dutchie

 

[redman]

Dutchie, I agree with you here... If you don't feel a problem with the calibers you mentioned, you won't have a problem with the .308 Win. The muzzle brake would lower the already moderate recoil, which I guess would make it useful if you want to maintain your point of aim after the shot or something. For recoil/flinch management, I personally wouldn't bother. In either case, get you rifle, see how it feels, if you feel you need a brake, get one.

Ahem, you obviously don't shoot on the same ranges I do (perhaps mpwolf will tell you the story of his PGW+Nightforce being backed over by a car while waiting to shoot 900m.... ;-)

Haha, I remember you telling me about this story before. Well, look, some things can't be helped... Despite the company reputation, I'm fairly certain that if my S&B accidentally winds up in an incinerator, the results won't be pretty!

 

[Allen Gun Works]

I bought a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical (made in Japan) for my first 'tactical' scope. It is great and has been accurate out to 1300 yds (with my .308), but not without a 200 kilometer holdover

I've used the Falcon Optics 5.5-25x56 on my friends rifle, and it broke while in a Pelican Case - and he didn't even drop it. Warranty has been an issue with it ever since...

I chose NF because honestly, it is probably the cheapest of the best. After all, it's definitely not a Hensoldt, Schmidt & Bender or Premier.

Just to put some closure to this misunderstanding.......

pazzo was nice enough to pm me some pics of his friends scope. Turns out it was a scope I sold. However, it wasn't a 5.5-25x56. It was a 4.5-18x56. It came apart where the two pieces of the tube join.

I had only seen this on other boards until this one. According to Falcon there was a very small lot of these that were manufactured improperly. Most of them failed and were replaced right away. This one fell into the serial number range and they were surprised it hadn't been replaced earlier. There have been no further problems with this line and they all fell into the same batch of serial numbers.

As far as the warranty "issue" goes......it took a couple of months to get a replacement as it just happened to be on the same order as the 5.5-25x56 that had the anodizing issue and then got held up further with the introduction of export paperwork for any scopes leaving the UK.

So, there is no problem with the 5.5-25x56 and the 4.5-18x56 two piece tube should not be a concern either. We have over 100 of them out there and only one broke.

Thanks to pazzo for sending clarification on that one.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Ice Pick, that is bizarre. Looks like paint?????

Jerry

 

[Ice-Pick]

nasty eh !! Anyone want to buy an UNFIRED gun, laff.

Waiting on a call from Rem. service Mon. or Tues. Told em I wanted to see it replaced for this guy. Said it they don't it won't matter I'LL buy it off of him and use it for a training aid in my Intro classes. Alot of new shooters ask what to buy, laff. Won't look too impressive beside the 5 Savage rifles we use.