Brasso my asso
- Thread starter .50BMG
- Start date
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Squeeze the mouth of the control closed with a pair of pliers and see if/when it cracks. Then, squeeze the various samples and see if they are the same or noticeably different. That's the way I would do it anyway.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
What we are attempting to prove, is that the concentration of ammonia in Brasso is insufficient to be a problem for reloaders who wish to use it as an additive for their brass polishers.
I am doing so by testing high concentrations of ammonia, as well as liquid Brasso, not dried out, as it would be in media. And comparing those results against several other chemicals, and of course our untouched brass in a bag.
I am doing so by testing high concentrations of ammonia, as well as liquid Brasso, not dried out, as it would be in media. And comparing those results against several other chemicals, and of course our untouched brass in a bag.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Ten hour update. There is a slight bluish tinge to liquid in the ammonia based tests, #5, and #6. No other noted change
Test is over.
After reading this thread last night I couldn't believe the Brasso legend had reared it's ugly head again.
So I went and looked under the sink in the kitchen and found a bottle of household ammonia. I really didn't care what the concentration was it had to be at least as strong as Brasso.
I went to the lab (man cave) and grabbed a handful of well-used 38spl brass and threw it in the tumbler with the crushed walnut. I then poured a capfull of the ammonia in the tumbler. I paused and then poured another capfull because I'm sure some here would argue that there was more ammonia in a capful of brasso. Then, to simulate repeated applications of Brasso, I added another 2 capfulls.
Still not satisfied as I know Gunnutz LOVE drama, I tipped the bottle into the tumbler and gave it a few good glug-glugs. I set the timer for 8 hours and away we went with experiment #1.
Then I took a margarine container, added another handful of brass and completely immersed this brass with the ammonia and put the lid on it.
Then I went to bed.
After supper tonight I opened up the tumbler and retrieved the brass. There was some discoloration, you could tell the ammonia had had some effect on the brass. I then opened the margarine tub and although the solution had a dark blue tinge to it, the brass looked shiny. I dumped the ammonia and a back corner of the yard to eveporate and by time I got back to the garden hose the brass had started to turn black! Once it was rinsed, no further blackening occurred.
Back at the bench, I loaded both batches of brass with LSWC that average about 165gr and a HEALTHY dose of Accurate Arms #2.
Just got back from the range and guess what? Nothing, that's what. The brass is fine, any deterioration appears to be only on the surface and does not seem to affect the integraty of the brass. The load was stiff enough to flatten primers, the brass was just fine.
Now I don't care how much ammonia is in a capeful of brasso, brass will never be subjected to as much as I put it through, no matter how long it lasts.
So fear not the Brasso, it does shine the brass if you want it too.
Your welcome.
After reading this thread last night I couldn't believe the Brasso legend had reared it's ugly head again.
So I went and looked under the sink in the kitchen and found a bottle of household ammonia. I really didn't care what the concentration was it had to be at least as strong as Brasso.
I went to the lab (man cave
) and grabbed a handful of well-used 38spl brass and threw it in the tumbler with the crushed walnut. I then poured a capfull of the ammonia in the tumbler. I paused and then poured another capfull because I'm sure some here would argue that there was more ammonia in a capful of brasso. Then, to simulate repeated applications of Brasso, I added another 2 capfulls. Still not satisfied as I know Gunnutz LOVE drama, I tipped the bottle into the tumbler and gave it a few good glug-glugs. I set the timer for 8 hours and away we went with experiment #1.
Then I took a margarine container, added another handful of brass and completely immersed this brass with the ammonia and put the lid on it.
Then I went to bed.
After supper tonight I opened up the tumbler and retrieved the brass. There was some discoloration, you could tell the ammonia had had some effect on the brass. I then opened the margarine tub and although the solution had a dark blue tinge to it, the brass looked shiny. I dumped the ammonia and a back corner of the yard to eveporate and by time I got back to the garden hose the brass had started to turn black! Once it was rinsed, no further blackening occurred.
Back at the bench, I loaded both batches of brass with LSWC that average about 165gr and a HEALTHY
dose of Accurate Arms #2. Just got back from the range and guess what? Nothing, that's what. The brass is fine, any deterioration appears to be only on the surface and does not seem to affect the integraty of the brass. The load was stiff enough to flatten primers, the brass was just fine.
Now I don't care how much ammonia is in a capeful of brasso, brass will never be subjected to as much as I put it through, no matter how long it lasts.
So fear not the Brasso, it does shine the brass if you want it too.
Your welcome.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Thanks Joe, but
Brasso Test continues.
Good morning.
Now at 19 1/2 hrs.
The ammonia samples are now dark enough blue for pics. I think they look a tad more dull than the other samples and the control. Nothing serious.
Brasso Test continues.
Good morning.
Now at 19 1/2 hrs.
The ammonia samples are now dark enough blue for pics. I think they look a tad more dull than the other samples and the control. Nothing serious.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
wax stripper on closer examination seems to show a dark stain near the mouth
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Vinegar/salt/water
Unchanged
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
10% and full strength Ammonia
Note the bluish tint to the solution. It was clear to start
Note the bluish tint to the solution. It was clear to start
Due to a long ago thread on Brasso & damage to brass, I looked it up and was convinced to throw out my contaminated media and buy some Nufinish.
The study was not specific to ammunition, and proved that ammonia, even in small quantities, does damage to brass.
This damage is first observed as cracks in brass after undergoing heat and pressure.
I googled but could not locate the article. Could someone find it? Leave Brasso out of the search string.
Also, ammonia is poison, that alone is reason to use something else.
The study was not specific to ammunition, and proved that ammonia, even in small quantities, does damage to brass.
This damage is first observed as cracks in brass after undergoing heat and pressure.
I googled but could not locate the article. Could someone find it? Leave Brasso out of the search string.
Also, ammonia is poison, that alone is reason to use something else.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Heat and pressure, we'll get to that in Phase two, although Joe has already done it.
Poison, yes, true, can cause liver damage amongst other things, however, as the amount we're talking about, particularly in dried out Brasso would be insignificant. I don't see the concern.
Now if everyone used the concentration I'm using in the test, on a continual basis, there might be a problem.
Did you note that one of the subjects of the test, is floor wax stripper?
How much ammonia exposure do you suppose you get there?
The exposure you'd get from doing just one floor certainly doesn't approach what we are even using in the test, much less the token exposure you'd get from a few spoonfuls in a case cleaner.
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Drink a glass of Lyman media reactivator and eat a few handfuls of media and let me know how you feel. Pretty bad huh ???? Guess you had better throw that out too. Burnt powder isn't good for you either...better send me all your old brass. Hey, what about lead ??? Better send me your guns too. As a thank-you, I'll send you a big plastic bubble to live in and all the tinfoil you could ever use.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Ok, end of phase one, and some pics.
I'll summarize the pics after each one, give me a few minutes for the edit.
Each case was removed from it's media, wiped down, the primer recess was given five circles with each end of a Q tip, and the inside of the case was given twenty laps with each end of the Qtip.
I did not experience the blackening Joe did, perhaps because of the difference in handling.
Start with the wax stripper.
The sample case does appear more dull than the control case, also cleaner. under examination with a 10X eye loop, it does show almost microscopic pitting.
I have no hesitation in firing this case, and will do so, later in the test, if it survives.
The primer recess was reasonably clean.
Inside the case, was cleaner than control, but not a lot.
Brasso
While I'm sure that the pitting is there, as it's not quite as shiny as the control case, it isn't evident under the eye loop.
The primer recess on this case came very clean, almost like new.
Inside the case, this cleaner was the hands down winner. The insides are not brilliant by any means, but notably cleaner than all the rest.
Vinegar/Salt/Water
This case shows easily as much pitting as the Wax Stripper case.
The primer recess also came clean, but not as clean as the Brasso
Same holds true inside the case, it came quite clean, but not as clean as the Brasso.
Control
The control case was treated exactly the same as the others in the test, WRT wiping down, and cleaning.
10% Ammonia cleaner
Both this case, and the full ammonia case appear similar WRT pitting, about the same as the wax stripper, and much more than the Brasso.
primer recess did come a bit cleaner, but not a lot.
Inside the case, was a bit cleaner than control, but not much
Full strength ammonia Cleaner
As I said before, this case is similar to the 10% WRT pitting. It does however show some peculiar stains more like shadows, near the neck.
The primer recess did not come very clean here either.
Inside the case, was a bit cleaner than control, but not much
I'll summarize the pics after each one, give me a few minutes for the edit.
Each case was removed from it's media, wiped down, the primer recess was given five circles with each end of a Q tip, and the inside of the case was given twenty laps with each end of the Qtip.
I did not experience the blackening Joe did, perhaps because of the difference in handling.
Start with the wax stripper.
The sample case does appear more dull than the control case, also cleaner. under examination with a 10X eye loop, it does show almost microscopic pitting.
I have no hesitation in firing this case, and will do so, later in the test, if it survives.
The primer recess was reasonably clean.
Inside the case, was cleaner than control, but not a lot.
Brasso
While I'm sure that the pitting is there, as it's not quite as shiny as the control case, it isn't evident under the eye loop.
The primer recess on this case came very clean, almost like new.
Inside the case, this cleaner was the hands down winner. The insides are not brilliant by any means, but notably cleaner than all the rest.
Vinegar/Salt/Water
This case shows easily as much pitting as the Wax Stripper case.
The primer recess also came clean, but not as clean as the Brasso
Same holds true inside the case, it came quite clean, but not as clean as the Brasso.
Control
The control case was treated exactly the same as the others in the test, WRT wiping down, and cleaning.
10% Ammonia cleaner
Both this case, and the full ammonia case appear similar WRT pitting, about the same as the wax stripper, and much more than the Brasso.
primer recess did come a bit cleaner, but not a lot.
Inside the case, was a bit cleaner than control, but not much
Full strength ammonia Cleaner
As I said before, this case is similar to the 10% WRT pitting. It does however show some peculiar stains more like shadows, near the neck.
The primer recess did not come very clean here either.
Inside the case, was a bit cleaner than control, but not much
Last edited:
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
I have no hesitation in firing any of the above, after examining each with an eye loop.
I will now see if I have any others of these cases around, so I can see how they survive the next test, before I test these.
I will now see if I have any others of these cases around, so I can see how they survive the next test, before I test these.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
I thought I'd run them through the 38-40 die, then back to 44-40.
But a preliminary test on another old case didn't turn out so well.
I can't use this test.
Just destroyed the case, the old thin brass is far too brittle.
I'll load, and fire them instead.
But a preliminary test on another old case didn't turn out so well.
I can't use this test.
Just destroyed the case, the old thin brass is far too brittle.
I'll load, and fire them instead.
BattleRife
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- of No Fixed Address
There is a serious shortcoming to most of these tests and claims, including John Y's. That is the use of straight, or nearly straight-wall cases. This is because by far the major effect of ammonia and ammonia compounds on copper alloys is not uniform corrosion or pitting corrosion, it is stress-corrosion cracking.
Stress corrosion cracking requires 3 conditions to occur: a corrosive environment, a susceptible material, and adequate stress. Brass and ammonia do represent a combo of corrosive environment and susceptible material, but unless they are simultaneously combined with an appled or residual stress, you will not develop SCC. Data has shown that highly stressed brass will crack in about 1.5 hours, modestly stressed will take 10 times that long.
SSC was discovered and defined by researchers trying to determine why .303 ammunition cracked during monsoon season in India (season cracking). In that case, ammonia from horse manure attacked the brass while the brass was strained by being crimped around a bullet. The solution was to anneal the brass after the draw and not store it in stables.
The real risk in cleaning brass cases in Brasso will only occur with bottleneck cases that are highly stressed, either because they are loaded with lots of case neck tension or because they have been resized many times without annealing. Soaking .38 special and 9mm and .40 S&W and even .38-40 cases in Brasso from now until the cows come home will never induce SCC. Of course this means also that you can polish these cases forever with Brasso in your media and you will never crack those cases. It is likely to be a problem only if you tumble those loaded .257 Weahterby cases that are on their 4th loading. For, say, two or three hours.
Stress corrosion cracking requires 3 conditions to occur: a corrosive environment, a susceptible material, and adequate stress. Brass and ammonia do represent a combo of corrosive environment and susceptible material, but unless they are simultaneously combined with an appled or residual stress, you will not develop SCC. Data has shown that highly stressed brass will crack in about 1.5 hours, modestly stressed will take 10 times that long.
SSC was discovered and defined by researchers trying to determine why .303 ammunition cracked during monsoon season in India (season cracking). In that case, ammonia from horse manure attacked the brass while the brass was strained by being crimped around a bullet. The solution was to anneal the brass after the draw and not store it in stables.
The real risk in cleaning brass cases in Brasso will only occur with bottleneck cases that are highly stressed, either because they are loaded with lots of case neck tension or because they have been resized many times without annealing. Soaking .38 special and 9mm and .40 S&W and even .38-40 cases in Brasso from now until the cows come home will never induce SCC. Of course this means also that you can polish these cases forever with Brasso in your media and you will never crack those cases. It is likely to be a problem only if you tumble those loaded .257 Weahterby cases that are on their 4th loading. For, say, two or three hours.
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There will always be naysayers and drama...and so it begins.........
Don't forget that humidity and temperature play an important roll in evapouration of any substance. John.....sorry buddy. You'll have to find an old fridge, freezer, humidifier, and de-humidifier to try these tests at various temps and humidities. This will simulate guys in different climates all over the world cleaning brass in their garage. I'd suggest you go in 0.000000000000001 degree steps, repeating the test each time. Make sure you raise the humidity 0.00000000000000000001 percent for each change in temperature and repeat. You'll also have to move the test area from place to place around the country to get a full grasp on the effects of different levels of air pollution, sun intensity, and the effects of varying degrees of magnetic lines of flux at different lattitudes.................
John, thanks for all the work to verify what most of us already believed. You too Joe. Looking forward to phase 2.
Don't forget that humidity and temperature play an important roll in evapouration of any substance. John.....sorry buddy. You'll have to find an old fridge, freezer, humidifier, and de-humidifier to try these tests at various temps and humidities. This will simulate guys in different climates all over the world cleaning brass in their garage. I'd suggest you go in 0.000000000000001 degree steps, repeating the test each time. Make sure you raise the humidity 0.00000000000000000001 percent for each change in temperature and repeat. You'll also have to move the test area from place to place around the country to get a full grasp on the effects of different levels of air pollution, sun intensity, and the effects of varying degrees of magnetic lines of flux at different lattitudes.................
John, thanks for all the work to verify what most of us already believed. You too Joe. Looking forward to phase 2.
