Input wanted on green tip ammo

| However, it is probably not legal in a way that it is most likely stolen from the military.


Last time I was at a communal range the military stuff all had the nato + inside a circle emblem on it, this stuff did not, as It turns out its the old Korean stuff; so its not stolen or anything; unless some Korean guy stole it, but I can't see that being worth the effort...

I guess Ill have to set up a range day and compare a 1:9 and a Norinco to see which likes the 62gr better :p; of course that leaves me and the 12 year old who assembled the Norinco as wildcard variables.

Thanks for everyones input; much appreciated.
 
M995 comes on SAW belts and outside of the USSOC system is virtually impossible to get.

A lot of "Black Tip" ammo is import M855 type ammo that people try to get inflated prices for.
 
AP rifle ammo isn't illegal to posses in Canada. AP handgun ammo, as well as any explosive or incendiary ammo, is.

There is no such thing as "rifle" ammo or "handgun" ammo.

The law states that ANY ammo designed to pierce armour that can be discharged by a commonly-available handgun is prohibited.

Since the RCMP evaluated the common availability of a .223 handgun to approve the release of 10-round LAR-15 .223 magazines, armour-piercing .223 ammo is prohibited in Canada.
 
Sounds like these rounds

http://www.thegunzone.com/556faq.html

The NATO standard, , M855 round is intended for use against light matériel targets and personnel, but not vehicles. Identified by a green tip, the 62 grain projectile is constructed of a lead alloy core topped by a steel penetrator, the whole contained within a gilding (copper alloy) metal jacket. The primer and case are waterproof. (See representative cartridge drawing.) Despite the round's penetration abilities, BATF has specifically exempted it from the AP ban.
 
There is no such thing as "rifle" ammo or "handgun" ammo.

The law states that ANY ammo designed to pierce armour that can be discharged by a commonly-available handgun is prohibited.

Since the RCMP evaluated the common availability of a .223 handgun to approve the release of 10-round LAR-15 .223 magazines, armour-piercing .223 ammo is prohibited in Canada.

I would say that rifle caliber ammunition is that which is generally understood as being designed for rifles whereas pistol ammunition is generally understood to be designed for semiautomatic pistols or revolvers, even though there are exceptions such as specialty pistols and pistol calibre carbines.

Nevertheless, I am not aware of any ruling that the law be interpreted to prohibit AP 5.56/.223 on the basis of the common availability of a semiautomatic pistol in that calibre (although the wording makes it a possibility). If this were the case, then 5.56 ammo with SS109 type bullets would have to be prohibited because this ammunition was developed to penetrate a steel helmet (body armour) at 600m, which the old M193 round was not capable of. However, newly manufactured PMC NATO spec ammo is commercially available and I believe that surplus has been sold in the past. It is therefore my opinion that there is no prohibition against AP 5.56 ammunition.

As an aside, I agree that M855/SS109/etc. ammo is not true AP because the core isn't composed entirely of tungsten or hardened steel, but it was indeed designed to provide enhanced body armour penetration.
 
Who's the #### that is stealing my thread and which Mod do I complain to?

The senior members hit it on the head, the green tipped ammo is 62gr with a mild steel core, its physically longer than a normal 55gr "ball" type bullet. The reason they painted the tips green is because they were typically belt fed into specific rifles, there are various opinions, but some feel that these 62gr bullets dont stabalize enough to be accurate on certain m-16/ar barrels...depending on the rifling; Nobody can agree on which ones, but the fact is, these green tips arent armour piercing, so they are legal in Canada.

the only ones which would be illegal have black painted on the head.

somebody lock this thread, cause its breeding fear mongering.
 
It's just too bad there's no logic or evidence behind it and has absolutely no chance of standing up in court.
Not at all - your logic is flawed.

You assume that a single .223 pistol caused all .223 ammo with armour-piercing designs to become prohib. First, show us the written ruling. Second, what about all of the "commonly available" .223 pistols before that? Ever hear of the Savage Striker and Remington XP100? There must be other examples.

Stevo nailed it.

Virtually every rifle cartridge out there is or was available in a handgun (right up to .50BMG and 600 Nitro). So virtually every armour-piercing-designed rifle ammo would have to be prohib - but it isn't.
 
I would say that rifle caliber ammunition is that which is generally understood as being designed for rifles whereas pistol ammunition is generally understood to be designed for semiautomatic pistols or revolvers, even though there are exceptions such as specialty pistols and pistol calibre carbines.

Hallelujah and pass the ammo :)
 
Extract from the: Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted

PART 5
PROHIBITED AMMUNITION

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 10

1. Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or revolver and that is manufactured or assembled with a projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to be capable of penetrating body armour, including KTW, THV and 5.7 x 28 mm P-90 cartridges.

2. Any projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered to ignite on impact, where the projectile is designed for use in or in conjunction with a cartridge and does not exceed 15 mm in diameter.

3. Any projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to explode on impact, where the projectile is designed for use in or in conjunction with a cartridge and does not exceed 15 mm in diameter.

4. Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a shotgun and that contains projectiles known as “fléchettes” or any similar projectiles.

Like Stevo said..... ;)

.
 
Who's the #### that is stealing my thread and which Mod do I complain to?

The senior members hit it on the head, the green tipped ammo is 62gr with a mild steel core, its physically longer than a normal 55gr "ball" type bullet. The reason they painted the tips green is because they were typically belt fed into specific rifles, there are various opinions, but some feel that these 62gr bullets dont stabalize enough to be accurate on certain m-16/ar barrels...depending on the rifling; Nobody can agree on which ones, but the fact is, these green tips arent armour piercing, so they are legal in Canada.

the only ones which would be illegal have black painted on the head.

somebody lock this thread, cause its breeding fear mongering.

weee... it's the cgn fear ride. Just because it's called Canadian Gun Nutz doesn't mean you have to be crazy or paranoid to join, it's just easier to relate to most members if you are.;)
 
I would say that rifle caliber ammunition is that which is generally understood as being designed for rifles whereas pistol ammunition is generally understood to be designed for semiautomatic pistols or revolvers, even though there are exceptions such as specialty pistols and pistol calibre carbines.

Not at all - your logic is flawed.

You assume that a single .223 pistol caused all .223 ammo with armour-piercing designs to become prohib. First, show us the written ruling.

McCoy posted it up there:

1. Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or revolver and that is manufactured or assembled with a projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to be capable of penetrating body armour, including KTW, THV and 5.7 x 28 mm P-90 cartridges.

Nevertheless, I am not aware of any ruling that the law be interpreted to prohibit AP 5.56/.223 on the basis of the common availability of a semiautomatic pistol in that calibre (although the wording makes it a possibility).

Just because case law hasn't caught-up with a fairly recent ruling by the RCMP doesn't mean something is legal; it just means nobody's been prosecuted for it yet. It doesn't change the letter of the law, which is very clear.

If this were the case, then 5.56 ammo with SS109 type bullets would have to be prohibited because this ammunition was developed to penetrate a steel helmet (body armour) at 600m, which the old M193 round was not capable of. However, newly manufactured PMC NATO spec ammo is commercially available and I believe that surplus has been sold in the past. It is therefore my opinion that there is no prohibition against AP 5.56 ammunition.

Again, just because distribution channels haven't caught up doesn't mean something isn't illegal. It wouldn't be the first time retailers would have to pull products they thought were legal from the shelves.

As an aside, I agree that M855/SS109/etc. ammo is not true AP because the core isn't composed entirely of tungsten or hardened steel, but it was indeed designed to provide enhanced body armour penetration.

I believe this is the only aspect that is subject to interpretation in a court of law as there is no regulation or ruling as to what grade of body armour must be penetrated to be considered "designed to penetrate body armour". Unfortunately judges in Canada tend to interpret firearm laws and regulations as broadly as they can to achieve the most restrictive effect.

Second, what about all of the "commonly available" .223 pistols before that? Ever hear of the Savage Striker and Remington XP100? There must be other examples.

Has the RCMP or anybody else in Canada ever been called to provide a judgement as to the common availability of those firearms in Canada? Unfortunately they have in the case of the LAR-15 pistol. Here's the first point the RCMP determined when they were asked to approve 10-round LAR-15 .223 pistol magazines:

1. The Rock River Arms, LAR-15 Pistol qualifies as a “handgun, commonly available in Canada”

and you can bet your ass that if the CFOs want to start enforcing this they will produce all of the RCMPs documentation on how they made that determination as evidence which would either:
a) be accepted by the Court and screw owners of AP .223 and 5.56 NATO ammo; or
b) be rejected by the Court and screw owners of 10-round LAR-15 pistol magazines.

Virtually every rifle cartridge out there is or was available in a handgun (right up to .50BMG and 600 Nitro). So virtually every armour-piercing-designed rifle ammo would have to be prohib - but it isn't.

Just because a handgun in that caliber once existed doesn't make it "commonly available". It has to still be in production and there needs to be Canadian distributors for it. In most cases it would be for the Crown to prove that this is the case but, as I said, that determination has already been made in order for us to have those precious 10-rounders. An unfortunate turn of events created by badly written regulations but real nonetheless.

I'm not saying that there is even a will for the CFO to actually start trying to enforce this but we should still be aware of the sword hanging over our heads and individually make decisions accordingly. Brushing it up under the carpet would be irresponsible and legally dangerous for our community.
 
[...]
Just because a handgun in that caliber once existed doesn't make it "commonly available". It has to still be in production and there needs to be Canadian distributors for it. [...]
You make some good points elsewhere, but not here. "commonly available" means there is an FRT entry. Otherwise the wording in the cartridge magazine regulations would not work at all. In other words, handguns out of production and/or without distributors would not be allowed 10-round magazines. Like P38's etc.

Unless of course you can reference a determination that matches what you just said.
 
You make some good points elsewhere, but not here. "commonly available" means there is an FRT entry. Otherwise the wording in the cartridge magazine regulations would not work at all. In other words, handguns out of production and/or without distributors would not be allowed 10-round magazines. Like P38's etc.

Unless of course you can reference a determination that matches what you just said.

You can ask the RCMP what their criteria is but it's irrelevant in this case. They have a documented case where they have established that a handgun chambered in .223/5.56 MM NATO IS commonly available.
 
All our firearm related laws are bs based on poorly written laws. Look up magazines; what is "military type"? Notice that rivets aren't an approved method of restricting capacity? Look up ammunition; how much is "required" for a firearm? Look up barrel modifications. I could go on. The issue is so poorly illustrated, it will take you and your lawyer having better pictures painted than the prosecution to keep you legal sometimes. Typical Canada. Mean well, but loose something in the translation. I blame being a bilingual nation.;)
 
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