IPSC match format

Level 3 Format

  • Shoot only (I don't want to work)

    Votes: 17 21.5%

  • Shoot and Work

    Votes: 22 27.8%

  • Shoot / Work (seperately)

    Votes: 40 50.6%
  • Total voters
    79
D

doon

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What Format should be used in Level 3 matches

1- Shoot Only
2- Shoot and Work (at same time)
3- Shoot / Work(separately on different days)


I would rather shoot and work at different times. I find working while on a squad distracting. Also ,as a match director, I would rather have all the people on the stage/range focused only on working.
 
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I voted shoot and work at the same time. I know I don't want to shoot after working, or compete against someone I can beat in a fair fight when he get's to shoot before working.
 
I voted work only. I am willing to pay the extra to just shoot at a level 3. Others prefer the monetary gains by working/shooting the same match.
 
I'm growing fond of matches with larger squads. With 10+ shooters, even taking out the shooter, guy on deck, and the guy who just shot, there is a ton of help to patch and set steel.
 
doon said:
Sorry ,but I don't go to matches to work only, even when I am the match director. And you could not pay me to shoot a pre match and then work.
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oh come on now Sheldon, where's your sense of excitement. Up at 5, on the range for 7, work till 7 or 8 in the evening and do it all over again tomorrow. such fun! :D

to be honest i wanted to see what i put the guys through last year and i doubt if i will do work match like that any where in the near future. one of the things we missed was the social time with people. we just didn't get a lot of that.
 
I would pay to only have to shoot, no patching, no setting steel, nothing. But I don't expect to see that at very many matches honestly.
my next preferred would be to have dedicated, paid CRO's and RO's like this past match, and have squads patch and paint.
my final choice would be to shoot one day, work another. With enough advance notice to know if I need to be there on day 1, or if I could arrive on day 2 and still fulfill all my obligations.
my last choice is the split day format, work part of a day, shoot part of day. That one is the worst in my opinion.
for the foreseeable future you won't see me shoot a prematch and be one of the dedicated officials. However if Cam and I get together and host another match, we will both not be shooting for score as we'll be running at least one "unknown" stage, and will want to keep it that way.
 
I said Shoot only - which is nice - but I don't really have an issue with shoot and work a bit another day, but only in other helping roles; not officiating.

I like patching with the squad because I get more opprotunity to look at the stage as I do it.

I like to see the same officials on every range throughout the match to ensure consistency.

I don't consider patching and setting steel while shooting to be work.
 
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I think he means a "surprise stage" where you are told only "this is a 24 round course of fire" and you have to go through it and find out where the targets are.

This works fine in a level 1 or fun match, but for any kind of level II or higher, it's pointless. Good shooters can piece together what a stage looks like just by listening to it, and fully expect that people will be talking about what it looks like after they finish shooting it, which defeats the point of the "surprise".

As far as options go, my order of preference would be:

Given that the match can be completed in 1 full day:
1. Shoot only, no work. (duh! Who doesn't want this to be their first preference).
2. Shoot and work at the same time and have only half days on the range. Having the odd day when you can sleep in is nice.
3. Shoot a full day, work a full day. Concentrate on just the shooting. However, if you shoot first and work the next day, expect that the "work day" is going to be a "hangover day" and things will move much slower.

Given 3 half days:
1. Shoot 3 half days and work at the same time. Again, anything to minimize my time on the range.
2. Shoot 1 and a half full days and work 1 full day (or 1 and a half days). Honesty, I think that if you had people shoot a full day, shoot a half day (with the rest of the day off) and work 1 full day, that's not too bad.

Every big match in the US follows the format of dedicated CRO's and RO's with the squads taping and setting steel and it works fine. Everyone does their part down there. I honestly don't know why Canadians seem to be the laziest when it comes to doing their part during the match. I cannot believe how many people I saw who were holding conversations when they should have been taping and patching. Granted, a larger squad makes it go easier.

Consider that a squad needs to have:
1 shooter getting ready
1 shooter on deck
1 shooter following the RO around checking their scores.
1 shooter is probably charging magazines
In a squad of 8, that leaves 4 people who should be working. A larger squad model makes things go easier, though, so I would suggest 10 people is the minimum squad size for this to really work out.
 
doon said:
Sorry ,but I don't go to matches to work only, even when I am the match director. And you could not pay me to shoot a pre match and then work.
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A few years ago I developed a bad case of RSI in my arm and had trouble drawing and shooting. I still attended matches but only RO'd. It was enjoyable from a social standpoint.
 
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having heard how a recent (non IPSC though) match did a surprise stage, I think we could still do one and keep it from being figured out by other shooters, regardless of what they hear in gunshots or from people that have shot it. If we can't do that, we won't have one.
back to the topic at hand, I do consider patching and setting steel as work, though as mentioned it does give one the oppotunity to check out more of a stage than if one is only allowed to inspect it after the walk through, and when you are the on deck shooter. This of course does create a bit of unfairness for the first couple shooters, but that occurs anyhow.
 
hungrybeagle said:
Every big match in the US follows the format of dedicated CRO's and RO's with the squads taping and setting steel and it works fine. Everyone does their part down there. I honestly don't know why Canadians seem to be the laziest when it comes to doing their part during the match. I cannot believe how many people I saw who were holding conversations when they should have been taping and patching. Granted, a larger squad makes it go easier.

Consider that a squad needs to have:
1 shooter getting ready
1 shooter on deck
1 shooter following the RO around checking their scores.
1 shooter is probably charging magazines
In a squad of 8, that leaves 4 people who should be working. A larger squad model makes things go easier, though, so I would suggest 10 people is the minimum squad size for this to really work out.
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....and a some of the USPSA Area and Sectional matches, as well as the SummerBlast in PA, were shot in 1/2 day. :D

We would drive down Friday (7hrs), shoot Saturday morning, and be home Saturday night - no dickin' around working a half day here and a half day there and spending 3 nights in a hotel :rolleyes:
 
hungrybeagle said:
Every big match in the US follows the format of dedicated CRO's and RO's with the squads taping and setting steel and it works fine. Everyone does their part down there. I honestly don't know why Canadians seem to be the laziest when it comes to doing their part during the match. I cannot believe how many people I saw who were holding conversations when they should have been taping and patching. Granted, a larger squad makes it go easier.

Consider that a squad needs to have:
1 shooter getting ready
1 shooter on deck
1 shooter following the RO around checking their scores.
1 shooter is probably charging magazines
In a squad of 8, that leaves 4 people who should be working. A larger squad model makes things go easier, though, so I would suggest 10 people is the minimum squad size for this to really work out.
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Absoloutely.

There is no reason for the laziness or the "holier than thou" attitude about not working and shooting at the same time. Even better......pay your way out of working. Vendors excluded......they definitely earn the right to not work on their non-shooting days.

It is quite possible to shoot 175 rounds in a half-day or 275 rounds in a full day match and not be rushed when you shoot and patch in the same match. The larger, and well run USPSA matches do it all the time.

The work/shoot schedule idea stems from the Canadian Nationals and it SUCKS!!! If it was created out of necessity, it is because we have some VERY lazy shooters. They are a minority, but we do have them. So does USPSA.

The best shooters on this continent patch targets when they shoot. What makes us any better? Nothing.
 
well i can tell you what i observed over the three days we rang stages 9 and 10. 10 was pretty simple, you started in the hole, shot he two classic poppers, shot the two mini poppers and shoot the two swingers. the hardest part of sitting it up was the two full sized steel.

However stage 9 was a lot of work to set up. we had four poppers and four walls. it was a lot of work. there is only on squad that sticks out in my mind that were a problem. i had to finally turn to the CRO and tell him that if the squadded didn't get up and patch, then i was going to set down and when their time was up i was just going to DNF them and let them explain to the RM why they couldn't finish shooting in their alloted time. that got their attention. there was also one squad that started off being lazy till Cathy yelled at them and their excuse was they didn't know they had to be out helping setup, even through it was read in the walk through.

for anyone who thinks it was the "elitist" you would be wrong. when the gold teams came through, they were out there working away and if anything were the ones you had to make sure they didn't tape faster then the scorers!
 
we followed that squad Walter, and Cathy gave us a nice warning when we arrived. There was no argument from any of us in regards to helping out.
 
I have no issues working while I shoot (patching, resetting non activiting steel)

What can (and has) caused problems is when someone from the squad is resetting an activator. That has to be done the same time...everytime...and should be done by an official or helper that is on the stage all day. I have seen occasions where someone from the squad didn;t reset it properly...the activator didn't...activate...and a reshoot was required.
 
Walter Hornby said:
... there is only on squad that sticks out in my mind that were a problem. i had to finally turn to the CRO and tell him that if the squadded didn't get up and patch, then i was going to set down and when their time was up i was just going to DNF them and let them explain to the RM why they couldn't finish shooting in their alloted time.
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Ranges 8 and 3 felt it was quicker to reset the long courses (patch, etc) by the range staff, so perhaps they had spoiled them ;)

In over 15 years of attending Florida Opens and Invitationals, (which is always squad required to patch) - I've run into a couple primadonnas that felt the other members of the squad should do all the patching. The best solution was the time the squad waited until it was the primadonna's turn to shoot - and didn't patch the targets for him. He had to patch his own targets and then shoot them. Surprisingly, his run wasn't so good. :D And he started patching on the next range. :D
 
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