Cowboy Ammo?

762mm

762mm

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Hey there guys,

I will be receiving a .44 Russian revolver soon and was wondering if there are any places up here that sell Winchester or Ultramax (or any other) cowboy loads in either .44 Russian or .44 Special. Cabelas in the U.S. has a nice choice of calibers at very good prices, but of course their Kanukistani counterpart (Cabelas.ca) doesn't carry that item. What a shock... :mad:

I am pretty positive that the two local stores in my area (lol!) will not have them either, as the last time I was there to buy something, they've had next to nothing in regular shooting supplies (so never mind anything fancy). That, plus I've never seen that type of ammo around here.

Also, if everything else fails and I have to make them myself, what would be a good cowboy load to make using smokeless powder? I would need the bullet weight/type as well as the kind of powder you'd use, please. I'm reading everywhere that only black powder should be used, but I'm not too fond of the idea of putting pits in an antique's bore. Also, can Lee .44 Magnum dies be used to reload .44 Special? Thanks in advance!

:)
 
Personally for .44 Special I like 4.8 grains of W231 pushing a 240 grain LSWC bullet with an overall length of 1.485", in my Ruger Vaqueros. 1 set of dies can be used to load both the special & the magnum.
 
The 44 Russian revolver is it new or is it an original S&W New model this makes a big difference to load.
 
It's an original S&W DA circa late 1890's, most likely... It is the long cylinder version which has a 4" barrel and can fire both .44's (Russian and Special). It has the S&W logo on it and markings indicating ".44 cartridge" on the barrel.

This is why I'm asking... I don't want to damage it and the previous owner did fire plenty of cowboy ammo in it with no problems, apparently... although the previous owner lives something like 7,000 clicks away and I'm out of luck in getting that type of ammo over here! Come to think of it, even regular .44 Special ammo is uncommon out here... :(
 
I run 6gr's of blue dot with magnum primers and a good crimp to insure ignition in my 44 russian with a 240 keith style bullet gives me about 600fps. With no damage to the gun Plenty of power to punch holes in paper or to shoot down cans or ring a gong . If I want power to rattle my wrist I'll take my 460 ruger to the range.
 
762mm said:
It's an original S&W DA circa late 1890's, most likely... It is the long cylinder version which has a 4" barrel and can fire both .44's (Russian and Special). It has the S&W logo on it and markings indicating ".44 cartridge" on the barrel.

This is why I'm asking... I don't want to damage it and the previous owner did fire plenty of cowboy ammo in it with no problems, apparently... although the previous owner lives something like 7,000 clicks away and I'm out of luck in getting that type of ammo over here! Come to think of it, even regular .44 Special ammo is uncommon out here... :(
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An original?....Then if you don`t want to damage it, reload with blackpowder only.....You don`t know what the previous owner(s) were shooting....Yes, by the late 1890`s they were shooting smokeless, but the metals they use today are stronger....Why take the chance with an original?....And I hope you had it checked out by a good gunsmith....
 
thanks for the info guys, it's very appreciated! :)

Airwolf said:
An original?....Then if you don`t want to damage it, reload with blackpowder only.....You don`t know what the previous owner(s) were shooting....Yes, by the late 1890`s they were shooting smokeless, but the metals they use today are stronger....Why take the chance with an original?....And I hope you had it checked out by a good gunsmith....
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Well, because it's fun to shoot something that is a historical item and because it's even more fun to shoot a handgun that doesn't require registration - the way it should be in a truly free society, which ours isn't. The mere looks of the other guys at the range when they learn what it is are worth it, lol!

Besides, I already have an RPAL and approx 9-10 registered handguns (I don't even remember how many exactly). The difference between these guns and my newly acquired S&W is that the registered stuff could be confiscated by force by the next POS Liberal government we get, whereas the S&W is not going anywhere. That alone is worth it.

As for shooting the thing, I want to get the feel of how it handles, of its' reliability/accuracy as a handgun and of what old timers in the 1800's shot, but without damaging the gun with BP (which turns nice firearms into junk with time). Smokeless powder is only unsafe it your pressures reach too high... but when using a light bullet + light loads of unique powder, it should be actually safer to fire than with BP (due to lower pressures). At least that's the general consensus around the firearms community... Hence my request to learn about other people's smokeless loads.

:cheers:
 
762mm said:
...Well, because it's fun to shoot something that is a historical
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...
I agree, but you didn`t answer my question about having a gunsmith check it out....

...As for shooting the thing, I want to get the feel of how it handles, of its' reliability/accuracy as a handgun and of what old timers in the 1800's shot, but without damaging the gun with BP (which turns nice firearms into junk with time)
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An just where did you get a crazy notion like that!?....I`ve been shooting BP for over 20 years and none of my firearms have turned from "nice" to "damaged"....I take it then, that you know nothing about BP to make a statement like that...Plus, if you want to know how the "oldtimers" shot in the 1800`s, here`s a secret, they shot with BP....

...Smokeless powder is only unsafe it your pressures reach too high
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... Errr, that was my point...A double charge, not knowing how it was used in the past etc, can lead to your antique being turned into a paper weight....
...but when using a light bullet + light loads of unique powder, it should be actually safer to fire than with BP (due to lower pressures). At least that's the general consensus around the firearms community... Hence my request to learn about other people's smokeless loads.
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...

It should be safer?...don`t you know?...Or are you "rolling the dice"?...And as for the general "consensus" around the firearms community, I can only surmise that they don`t know squat about BP.....

I have antiques from the 1800`s, but I shoot them with BP, the way the "oldtimers" did...It`s your gun, do as you please, just remember that you have been warned...
 
Black powder is more work to clean up than Smokeless.

It wont hurt a Antique firearm but thats only IF you know how to clean up after useing it.
A 1800s Bore with some minor surface Frosting or roughness gives lots of places for the BP residue to get in there.

My experience with BP in Antiques.......I had a sweet Webley 1892 Wilkinson that had a few minor pits here and there with typical roughness from bP use. and i shot BP in it then cleaned it as i was told and put the gun away it looked clean.
When i took it outa few months later it had More rougness in the areas where the pitting was.
So i shoulda Scrubed the crap outa it more obviously.

So i think if your good with BP clean up its fine to use if you like it.
For myself the Mess of BP clean up and my experience with it i wont shoot it in ANY of my Antiques cept maby a few mint shiney bored guns i have Maby if it was all i had.

This Fellow is just getting into Antiques he is Buying the S&W off of me and its been shooting winchester Cowboy Ammo for some time with no issues.

Smokeless is easyer to clean up and he just wanted some safe loads for the gun which i have given him so hes not gona Blow up anything or hurt the gun. ;)
 
Thank you Dingus... that's exactly what I've been saying, especially AFTER reading posts by knowledgeable collectors in this thread:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249992


To sum it up, if you plan to spend a lot of time scrubbing the bore and then the entire gun after every shoot, then by all means shoot BP till you drop. But, if you are an experienced reloader and know your pressures well, then smokeless is not an issue and can be beneficial due to less corrosive gunk accumulation and lesser pressures... IF you know what you're doing.

This is exactly why I posted this in the first place... to learn about other people's experiences and to get a few tips on SAFE smokeless loads, not to be blasted and treated like the village idiot. A few of you were kind enough to fill me in by posting here or via PM, while others have blasted me with what I already know/read about 100 times over. The thread has almost totally derailed into oblivion, lol.

:weird:

P.S. As for "hogwash"... how do you explain that the WORST bore & frame pitting is always to be found on BP firearms vs smokeless firearms of the same or nearly same period? Saying that it's because BP owners care less about their guns than smokeless owners doesn't cut it, as it isn't true... So why is it so? Personally, I haven't come across a BP firearm for sale that didn't mention at the very least a 'slight pitting of the bore' - yet I personally own a smokeless antique whose bore & internals are near perfect (French 1892 revolver). Funny, eh?...
 
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These cowboys out on the frontier couldn't exactly just clean their guns just any time after shooting them. That and remember they were tools, not museum pieces to these men.

After you stretch the frame (or worse) on your nice S&W shooting smokeless loads, let us know how that goes :rolleyes:
 
MauserMike said:
These cowboys out on the frontier couldn't exactly just clean their guns just any time after shooting them. That and remember they were tools, not museum pieces to these men.

After you stretch the frame (or worse) on your nice S&W shooting smokeless loads, let us know how that goes :rolleyes:
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Seems with everone of theses threads we get the BP and the Smokeless debate over and over.
As long as you dont load your Smokeless loads Hot theres no frame strech.
Win 38 55 has done alot of shooting with diffrent smokeless loads with no ill effects on the frames of either of his S&W prize guns.
He measures em every time he shoots them and is very carefull about reloading.

Makeing a Blank statement that your gona Strech your Frame if you use the evil Smokeless gun powder is a bit much.
it Just puts down all the Work the guys here myself included have put into there smokeless loads.

Theres been Dozens of threads on how all the MKI and MKII webleys would become piles of Shrapnel if a Fiochhi or hornady Factory 455 were shot in them....
Funny aint seen any pics posted of the Streched or destroyed guns yet!
Or heard the Complaints from the guys shooting them either.

You can shoot all the BP ya want. but dont be makeing up stuff to scare people away from smokeless powder.
Leave some air space in a 45 Colt case with a BP load and see what can happen.
lightly crimped bullets can creep forward with each shot in a 6 gun creating air space in the remaining loads driveing up BP presures to.

Smokeless loaded to safe presures is SAFE in good quality antique revolvers.

Ive shot Thousands of Rds of smokeless in my Keepers and have none of the Evil Strech you speak of.
 
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Its true its a bit of a blanket statement, but not as blanket as saying black powder will destroy your gun.

I think you need to attach the caveat for smokeless "if you REALLY know what you're doing". If you're going to load smokeless, best to seek out people that really know what they're doing and don't ever screw up.
 
dingus said:
Smokeless loaded to safe presures is SAFE in good quality antique revolvers.
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This is the key point here.

You guys all know my perspective on this already...so I will not pursue.

Advice, if any, would be to have the firearm checked by a competent gunsmith to ensure it is safe to shoot. Going by the word of previous owner(s) may not be wisest approach. Just to protect yourself and your investment it would be prudent to enlist the expertise of a gunsmith. The loading procedures have been thoroughly discussed relating to other similar topics and has given you a huge amount of information to help you in your endeavor.
Additional posts of your progress would be appreciated by most.
Hopefully this may bring the discussion to an satisfactory resolution.
Cheers
 
Alonzo said:
Additional posts of your progress would be appreciated by most.
Hopefully this may bring the discussion to an satisfactory resolution.
Cheers
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Yeah, well I do have another antique for which I've loaded 8mm Lebel cases with 2.3 gr of HP-38 (which should be a perfect light starting load). I don't have time to shoot it for now because I work 7 days a week, but will do so in a couple of days if everything goes well.

I will let you know if I come back from the range with all the limbs still attached; if not, I promise to make an effort to type with my feet or with a pencil in my mouth.


Also, rest assured that I will post feedback on the smokeless S&W DA shoot... but I have to get my hands on a set of .44 spl dies and some unique powder first.
 
762mm The M1892 8mm French revolver ctg was originally loaded with .73 grams (11,24 gr) of black powder. Any antique M1892 has been fired with BP.
Sources:
"Military Handguns of France" Huon
"Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges" Erlmeier & Brandt
"Pistol and Revolver Cartridges" White & Munhall
 
MauserMike said:
Its true its a bit of a blanket statement, but not as blanket as saying black powder will destroy your gun.

I think you need to attach the caveat for smokeless "if you REALLY know what you're doing". If you're going to load smokeless, best to seek out people that really know what they're doing and don't ever screw up.
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Fair enough.
 
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