M1 carbine enough gun for deer?
- Thread starter atomicsauace
- Start date
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I dont think anyone here is going to argue with you about this statement.
For those of you, that missed it, TimC is an experienced guide in the UK.
His stalking rifle is a bolt action CZ 527 in 7.62 x 39.
He has to utilize hot handloads, because the UK game laws specify a minimum energy requirement.
Have a good one.......
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Thanks for the clarificationI dont think anyone here is going to argue with you about this statement.
For those of you, that missed it, TimC is an experienced guide in the UK.
His stalking rifle is a bolt action CZ 527 in 7.62 x 39.
He has to utilize hot handloads, because the UK game laws specify a minimum energy requirement.
Have a good one.......
I managed to get a nice .275 Rigby this year and it has taken a Roebuck already.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v140/24626151/?action=view¤t=DSCF5816.flv
I was surprised as usual on dressing out the carcase exactly how well the 140 grain 7mm round had done its job, I was very happy with the result. It certainly didnt deflect as I had first thought!
Back in the early 90's when I was living in Comox BC, I want a small light rifle (surplus or not) to be carry while farting around mount washington during hunting season.
A good friend of mine Mark Jesse who ran a gun store at the time happened to have an MI carbine with legal aftermarket bbl. I told him what my plans were and the rifle I'd like to carry for such a pursuit...after about 2 minutes of talking I walked outta his store with a very good condition L.E. Jungle Carbine. With that lil carbine it dropped me one black bear and three blacktails. the 30 M1 cartridge should be left for two footed upright game imo, and even still i'd look for something a little better/bigger.
A good friend of mine Mark Jesse who ran a gun store at the time happened to have an MI carbine with legal aftermarket bbl. I told him what my plans were and the rifle I'd like to carry for such a pursuit...after about 2 minutes of talking I walked outta his store with a very good condition L.E. Jungle Carbine. With that lil carbine it dropped me one black bear and three blacktails. the 30 M1 cartridge should be left for two footed upright game imo, and even still i'd look for something a little better/bigger.
after referencing the "Optimum Game Weight" (OGW) charts in my Lyman book, it seems that the 110 grain bullet traveling around 1900fps would be most suitable for game animals up to around 150lbs.
So, within 50yards, it could do a decent job on small to average sized whitetail deer. (My uncle even killed a moose with one, but this has been done with .22lr as well...) In Ontario, any centerfire rifle is legal for deer, moose or bear, which opens the field to many, many cartridges that are, I.M.O., unsuitable for this purpose. If its all you have, practice with it extensively, and use extreme discretion when you choose your shot. Relying on the ability to make a quick follow-up to a poor first shot is not only poor sportsmanship, it is also a fantasy that you will most likely not get the chance to live-out.
I was lucky to bag a big buck a few years back at 40yds with my 7x57 chilean mauser and a 175grain Nosler partition. Lots of power to core his heart with a head-on shot, but the bullet was stopped after penetrating less than one inch of the stomach. He ran even with a destroyed heart and if he hadnt hit a tree he might have gone a hundred yards or more. In thick bush, with dusk coming quick it would have been hard to find him as there was not much of a blood trail to follow, so i can heartily recommend to go with an "overkill" cartridge before one that is merely "good enough"
I wish we had minimum power factors for big game cartridges in Ontario. It might rule out my CZ tactical carbine, but its a common sense approach to a real problem...
So, within 50yards, it could do a decent job on small to average sized whitetail deer. (My uncle even killed a moose with one, but this has been done with .22lr as well...) In Ontario, any centerfire rifle is legal for deer, moose or bear, which opens the field to many, many cartridges that are, I.M.O., unsuitable for this purpose. If its all you have, practice with it extensively, and use extreme discretion when you choose your shot. Relying on the ability to make a quick follow-up to a poor first shot is not only poor sportsmanship, it is also a fantasy that you will most likely not get the chance to live-out.
I was lucky to bag a big buck a few years back at 40yds with my 7x57 chilean mauser and a 175grain Nosler partition. Lots of power to core his heart with a head-on shot, but the bullet was stopped after penetrating less than one inch of the stomach. He ran even with a destroyed heart and if he hadnt hit a tree he might have gone a hundred yards or more. In thick bush, with dusk coming quick it would have been hard to find him as there was not much of a blood trail to follow, so i can heartily recommend to go with an "overkill" cartridge before one that is merely "good enough"
I wish we had minimum power factors for big game cartridges in Ontario. It might rule out my CZ tactical carbine, but its a common sense approach to a real problem...
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Thanks to pierre elliot ret@rdo, his administration created the restricted classification in and around 1969.
But it was not until 1977/78, that M1 carbines, mostly because of the barrel length, were put into this classification in Canada.
I had one once, that I purchased when I was eighteen. The previous owner used to rabbit hunt with it, (prior to 1977) in NS. Oh so Evil!!
guide has changed again, the way it reads now is that .204 can be considered legal,and i quote;
"A centrefire rifle may be used to hunt big game. A centrefire rifle of .23 calibre or less is not reccomended."
not recommended, but not illegal. like any round, the .204, or the .30 Carb. or .25-20, etc etc, will kill a deer properly. if it's limitations are accepted and is used properly, that is the caveat with these type of rounds. most people choose to ignore this, which is why we hear the stories of someone who tried to use a .223 with a varmint bullet, like it was a .30-06 loaded with partitions.
The M1 was not designed to replace the .45ACP more to replace the M1-Gurand that was too large to carry in a jeep or so! While the REMO users
needed a longer range carbine rifle and less pistol than the .45 auto!
I would rather have the M1 in 30-06!
The M1 carbine is a 20 round 115 grain accessory (much like a 20 round .357) It's a pistol round in a carbine!
Bob
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
When I first saw this thread I expected I would be quick to object to the use of the .30 carbine round for any big game application, but just for the heck of it I checked some load data and came away with a slightly different opinion. If the cartridge was loaded with a proper big game bullet, like a 130 gr TSX to say 1700 fps, then under close range conditions I believe it would be suitable as a deer cartridge. IMHO, the 110 gr factory bullets were not designed for use on big game, and they their short length would result in too short an expanded projectile for straight line penetration to occur as the bullet would no longer be able to rotate around a linear axis and the light weight would result in insufficient momentum for sufficient penetration. A proper big game cartridge should have a reasonable expectation of killing a big game animal with a single shot within the range limitations of the cartridge and marksman. The factory .30 Carbine falls short in this respect, but handloaded with a good bullet it does become marginally acceptable.
I 100% believe/agree with the marginally acceptable capability of this ctg. as stated by Boomer.
There's better carbine calibers out there
Off the top of my head I would say it would be tough if not impossible to load the 130 TSX in the 30C and still have them fit in the magazine. But I could be wrong. Years ago when I fiddled around with this cartridge, I tried 110gr hollowpoints. While you can get them to fit the mag (barely) they wouldn't feed worth a damn. I think by time you seated a 130TSX deep enough to fit the M1 mag, there wouldn't be much room for powder. Although it wasn't available at the time, I believe Lil' Gun would be your friend on current testing......
They do fit (110HP), and work wonderfully, in the blackhawk however. They can be seated out to the full length of the cylinder, which leaves enough room for a meaningful powder charge.
someone here in the uk uses the calibre in a straight pull AR for practical rifle. Its obviously a capable case but the M1 carbine seems to limit its development. I have often considered a falling block in .300 Sherwood or similar for deer. Not sure about the legalities here though!
Me, I',m guessing a .30 Carbine in the boiler room puts 'em on the ground better than a .300 (anything) magnum in the antlers, jaw, legs, guts, hams, or hocks, or where ever else most of the off-hand rounds blasted in the general direction of whitey by the typical nimrod. If a 45 pound bow can drop a deer, a .30 Carbine certainly can. It is called hunting. Get as close as you can effectively operate your weapon system, and then get closer, then pick the optimum shot. Or stay home.
Fondly remember years ago, an article in a mainstream gun mag, writtten by a wildlife officer, who, while conducting roadside game checks, invited hunters to engage in a shooting test survey. Not surprisingly, the vast majority of the licenced hunters could not hit the vitals of whitey off hand at 50 yards. Most were carrying '06's, with a sprinkling of .270's, .30-30's and the like. Imagine how they would fare today, with most guys doubling up on the recoil, in lighter rifles. Probably even the sky would be safe, as the flinchers mostly hit the dirt in front of their target. Me, I'd rather hunt beside a guy with a .30 Carbine who knew how to get close and hit the boiler room, and was patient enough to do so, than anyone with a ++ maggy cracking off rounds just 'cuz. Ditto for .30-30, .243, and other 'marginal' cartridges. Whitey ain't no tougher than he was a hundred years ago.
Fondly remember years ago, an article in a mainstream gun mag, writtten by a wildlife officer, who, while conducting roadside game checks, invited hunters to engage in a shooting test survey. Not surprisingly, the vast majority of the licenced hunters could not hit the vitals of whitey off hand at 50 yards. Most were carrying '06's, with a sprinkling of .270's, .30-30's and the like. Imagine how they would fare today, with most guys doubling up on the recoil, in lighter rifles. Probably even the sky would be safe, as the flinchers mostly hit the dirt in front of their target. Me, I'd rather hunt beside a guy with a .30 Carbine who knew how to get close and hit the boiler room, and was patient enough to do so, than anyone with a ++ maggy cracking off rounds just 'cuz. Ditto for .30-30, .243, and other 'marginal' cartridges. Whitey ain't no tougher than he was a hundred years ago.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have no doubt that within it's limitations a .30 carbine round (softpoint or hollowpoint) it can do this deed.
There are no doubt too, that some hunter's out there are unperpared for this year's deer season, regardless of cartridge/rifle choice.
As well, I have no flat-shooting magnums in my ownership, but I do not assume all magnum rifle owners are incompetent either.
Others may be more proficient than you can guess.......
A 45lb bow launching an arrow with a 1" razor sharp broadhead that slices thru artery, lung tissue and blood pumper will surely by far drop anything and provide a better wound channel, cause significant hemmorrhage than a say a 110gr .30. Your statement of getting close and effectively operate your wpn system (its not a wpn btw, but a tool) would put other unsatisfactory calibers on the table. For example; .22LR in the boiler room will drop a deer too.
Is it really called hunting when the device you use to drop your game is'nt ethically efficient
The topic of this thread is, is the M1 Carbine enuf for deer? It'll do, but why when there are much much better low recoil short action calibers out there.
my .02 cents
