LAR15 Pistol Mag in AR15 - ruling

V

V29189896

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I don't mean to bring up the "can you" thread.

However - I read the ruling, I understand the ruling.

I also argued with an OPP Officer over beer this weekend.

"If I saw that mag, in that rifle, I would charge you with a prohibited firearm"


I had him read the ruling - he understands the angle. He wants me to also find a "Court Ordered Ruling" - Basically showing that someone has actually gone to court, and the charges reversed. He explained, the ruling, the Court order, would pacify the order.

He also recommended, that you store the Mags in a separate locked container, thus minimizing the relation to LAR15 mags and your AR...


Does anyone know of, or have information to the Court Order??

(He said that the RCMP Ruling was enough for him to walk past, but HotShots may not, and its not worth fighting to get your AR back...)

thanks
 
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V29189896 said:
He also recommended, that you store the Mags in a separate locked container, thus minimizing the relation to LAR15 mags and your AR...
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:rolleyes:I hope to god he was kidding right?

Look, the LAR15 magazine is a pistol mag, PERIOD. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT TYPE OF FIREARM YOU USE IT IN. Others can speak of the development and legal hurtles that went into making the magazine.

Would your friend charge you with having a ten round glock magazine in your bag or for trying to insert the glock mag in your rifle? The LAR15 is the same thing, it's a pistol mag and as such is limited to ten rounds. There is no law that dictates the usage of pistol mags, or their ownership, they just have to be limited to ten rounds.
 
How can he charge you with possession of a prohibited firearm (or whatever) when the firearm itself is not the item in question, it is the magazine? It's an AR-15, pretty bog standard in it's many variations, and is restricted. What the #### does the magazine have to do with the gun??

Honestly, sounds like this guy just doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
Hey newb...is that your service #?

And regardless of what the OPP thinks, we all know the RCMP knows better...it is called officially induced error even if thhe OPP wins in court, so you would still get to keep your goodies...
 
Supposedly there is some sort of memo that went out to the RCMP detachments from the CFC explaining this. I'd suggest that we find a copy of this memo, post it here and keep and copy with your range bag. That way if you ever run into this sort of problem again, you can whip out the memo.
 
He's full of ####, and too proud to admit it. If he was dumb enough to try and press charges, the crown would either look like an ####### in court when the charges were dismissed, or he'd have a dressing down from the crown.

The short version is he would have to argue that by a feat of magic, inserting a legal 10 round magazine into a legal restricted rifle, transformed the magazine into a prohibited 10 round magazine.
 
Canuck223 said:
He's full of s**t, and too proud to admit it. If he was dumb enough to try and press charges, the crown would either look like an a**hole in court when the charges were dismissed, or he'd have a dressing down from the crown.

The short version is he would have to argue that by a feat of magic, inserting a legal 10 round magazine into a legal restricted rifle, transformed the magazine into a prohibited 10 round magazine.
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close but not quite

He would have to argue that inserting the legal magazine into the legal rifle transforms the rifle into a prohibited device :)
 
So would the Beretta Storm with the longer barrel, ie making it non-restricted, and a Beretta pisotol mag at 10 rounds now make it prohib? I think not and the same with the AR's. You should ask your friend about that and see what he has to say.
 
There was/is a short writeup regarding the CX4 using pistol mags. Can't remember it exactly, but I think I did print it from the CFC site to keep on hand "just in case".

Maybe there is something like that for the 10 round AR pistol mags.
 
his angle is - "that rifle is intended to have no more than 5 rounds" - "I see you have one of those 30rnd plugged mags - take out the plug, fill it with rounds, place it in your AR15, and you're in hot water" "I don't care that one magazine is stamped 'LAR15 Pistol Magazine', bottom line - there is more than 5 rounds in your rifle"

I didn't know how to argue that point...I may just not know enough of the laws, and their wording.
I still like his recommendation on locating a Court Ordered Ruling...
 
Let's not mention to him certain legal .22lr options for ARs with magazine counts other than 5. <hehe>
Drives some Fudds bananas when they try to count the rounds. 24...25...26...
 
The point is he has no idea what the law actually says and doesn't care to find out. Because of this you can not effectively argue with him.

He's a ####tard.
 
We all know that 10rd pistol mag is perfectly legal. But what this guy was asking is for a piece of paper from some authority that actually says yes it's ok!

I know that it is perfectly legal but why pay a lawyer to prove you right when a photo copy of the bl….dy court document will settle this on the spot. In other words it’s not a matter of winning it’s a matter of how you win.

IMO this is very sorry, we have officers so uninformed and we have to go the extra mile to educate them. That's anacceptable! It is unjust to go this route when we all know that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for the defendant. Why is it ok with a law enforcement officer not to know the laws?
 
Lawrence D said:
IMO this is very sorry, we have officers so uninformed and we have to go the extra mile to educate them. That's anacceptable! It is unjust to go this route when we all know that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for the defendant. Why is it ok with a law enforcement officer not to know the laws?
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I agree, but it's the usual hypocritical governmental bs:mad:
 
Well here is the bulletin from the CFC. To me it is clear that a pistol mag can be used in a rifle and have a capacity of 10 rounds. Although this bulletin refers to the CX4 it clearly states that magazine capacity is limited by what the magazine was made for not what it fits into. Maybe show this to your friend and see what he has to say

Beretta CX4 Storm Magazine
Special Bulletin for Businesses - No. 55
January 18, 2006
Notice The information contained in this bulletin is considered accurate the date of publication. The information has not been updated to reflect any changes to the Firearms Act and related regulations.
Snapshot
•
Some Beretta CX4 Storm rifles are being manufactured with prohibited magazines.
•
The classification of a firearm magazine depends on the type of firearm the magazine was designed to be used in, not the type of firearm it is actually used in.
•
The new 10-cartridge magazine designed for the Beretta CX4 Storm rifle is prohibited unless it has been permanently altered so that it cannot hold more than five cartridges .
•
The 10-cartridge pistol magazine used on many Beretta CX4 Storm rifles is still legal, regardless of the type of firearm it is attached to.
We have recently learned that some Beretta CX4 Storm rifles are being manufactured with magazines that are prohibited in Canada.
As set out in Criminal Code Regulations, the classification of a magazine depends on the type of firearm a magazine was designed to be used in, not the type of firearm it is actually used in.
When the Beretta CX4 Storm rifle was first produced, it used a 10-cartridge magazine that was designed for a handgun. Most magazines designed for a handgun may legally hold up to 10 cartridges, even when used in a rifle.
Beretta is now producing a 10-cartridge magazine designed specifically for the CX4 Storm rifle. The law sets a maximum capacity of five cartridges for magazines designed for a semi-automatic, centre-fire long gun such as the Beretta CX4 Storm rifle. A 10-cartridge magazine with a CX4 Storm stamp on it is prohibited unless it has been permanently altered so that it cannot hold more than five cartridges.
If your business has any CX4 Storm rifles in its inventory, please check the magazine to see which version you have. A CX4 Storm stamp on the magazine indicates it is a prohibited device. Please note that the presence of a prohibited magazine does not affect the classification of the firearm itself. The Beretta CX4 Storm rifle remains classified as a restricted firearm.
However, the business cannot sell a Beretta CX4 Storm rifle at retail with a prohibited magazine in it, unless the magazine has been permanently altered to hold a maximum of five cartridges. Your business may possess a prohibited magazine
only if it is licensed to possess prohibited devices for an approved purpose indicated on the licence.
If your business does not have the required licence privileges, you must either dispose of any prohibited magazines in the business inventory or permanently alter the magazines to hold a maximum of five cartridges. If you choose to dispose of a prohibited magazine, you may be able to replace it with one that is not prohibited – for example, a handgun magazine used on earlier versions of the rifle.
Criminal Code Regulations set out the following options for altering a prohibited magazine to make it legal:
a.
The casing can be indented by forging, casting, swaging or impressing; or
b.
If the cartridge has a steel or aluminum casing, a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of the same (or similar) material as the casing, can be inserted and permanently attached to the inner surface of the casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
c.
If the cartridge is made of a material other than steel or aluminum, in addition to the options mentioned above, a permanent adhesive substance such as cement or epoxy glue can also be used to attach an insert. In this case, the insert would have to be made of steel or a material similar to that of the magazine casing.
Options for disposing of a prohibited magazine include transferring it to a properly licensed business (perhaps in exchange for one that is legal), exporting it to a country that allows it, or turning it in to a police or firearms officer.
An export permit may be required from International Trade Canada if the magazine is being exported to a country other than the United States. More information and application forms for an export permit are available from the Export Controls Division of International Trade Canada at 1 800 267-8376 or (613) 996-2387 or from their Website.
If your business has ordered but not yet received an affected rifle, please note that we have notified Canada Border Services Agency that these rifles cannot lawfully be imported if they have a magazine with the CX4 Storm stamp on it, unless the magazine has been altered so that it cannot hold more than five cartridges.
We have also notified the manufacturer and distributors that the 10-cartridge rifle magazine is prohibited but that the 10-cartridge handgun magazine is not prohibited.
More Information
For general information, contact us.
This bulletin is intended to provide general information only. For legal references, please refer to the regulations pertaining to prohibited magazines.
Le présent bulletin est également disponible en français
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V29189896 said:
his angle is - "that rifle is intended to have no more than 5 rounds" - "I see you have one of those 30rnd plugged mags - take out the plug, fill it with rounds, place it in your AR15, and you're in hot water" "I don't care that one magazine is stamped 'LAR15 Pistol Magazine', bottom line - there is more than 5 rounds in your rifle"

I didn't know how to argue that point...I may just not know enough of the laws, and their wording.
I still like his recommendation on locating a Court Ordered Ruling...
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Unfortunately for him, the law does not in fact limit rifles to 5 rounds. It limits magazines designed for semi automatic rifles to 5rds. So, clearly if the magazine was not designed for a semi automatic rifle, then the law does not apply. Since the RCMP forensics crew has in fact decided that the magazines in question were manufactured for a pistol, he would then need to read the laws pertaining to pistol magazines. There is no court ordered ruling because they are not what he is declaring that they are and any court would use the forensics expertise of the RCMP in any ruling made.
 
Hokus Grey said:
Has anyone figured out if this rule applies to the 10/30 mags as well?
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No it does not. Only to the lar-15 pistol magazine by name.

Specifically this one:

LAR-15Mag.jpg


And I'm re-reading Mark's post on http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155149
I don't ever remember a reference to Rock River Arms LAR-15 30 round Pistol mags pinned to 10 rounds being included in this DFAIT to CFC document.
It was pretty clear that it was for the mag identified above and not a class of magazines. As a matter of fact it even clearly states "is not an adaption of a magazine designed and manufactured for use in a semi-automatic rifle."

A pinned mag how I read it, is an adaption.
 
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