CFRC Shot Averages from the All-Comers Agg for FClass

Kodiak99317

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These are based on the All Comers Agg. which has 13 matches in it in total if you shot them all.

DCRA 2009 CFRC THE ALL-COMERS AGGREGATE 25 Aug 2009 16:19:36

consisting of MACDOUGALL 500 10 @ 500 YDS
MACDOUGALL 300 10 @ 300 M
BECKETT 300 10 @ 300 M
BRICK 500 10 @ 500 YDS
BRICK 600 10 @ 600 YDS
LETSON 300 7 @ 300 M
LETSON 500 7 @ 500 YDS
LETSON 600 7 @ 600 YDS
PRESIDENT'S 300 10 @ 300 M
PRESIDENT'S 500 10 @ 500 YDS
PRESIDENT'S 600 10 @ 600 YDS
GIBSON 300 10 @ 300 M
GIBSON 600 10 @ 600 YDS

CFRCAll-ComersShotAverages.jpg


My program still needs a little work so it can classify based on these figures. These figures use the same classification system as the T/R shooters use, with the same breakdowns, even with the wee vee. This is not in the DCRA rules, as FClass shooters currently are NOT classified, but maybe we should for the bigger matches. I would have still come in last LOL.

Later,
Keith
 
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Keith, I see you are using a system based on scores achieved, which I think is how most PRAs do it (eg NB does).

You might want to look at "Rule 5" in the DCRA rulebook, to see how the DCRA TR classifications are done (pg. 93 of this .pdf) Any thoughts on whether something like this might work for F-Class? (I wonder whether or not we have a large enough field of F-Class competitors to make it a robust or meaningful system?)
 
Glen Taylor and I discussed the classification system this past weekend as a possible circumventon of the short range ICFRA target, which will certainly be an anathema to new shooters.

I think before one were to worry about a classification system, one should look at why you only got 25 F-class shooters to the CFRC, with 60% being from Ontario or Quebec.

If 25 shooters constitutes an acceptable national attendance, we may as well hold "national" matches in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba too.
 
Keith, I see you are using a system based on scores achieved, which I think is how most PRAs do it (eg NB does).

You might want to look at "Rule 5" in the DCRA rulebook, to see how the DCRA TR classifications are done (pg. 93 of this .pdf) Any thoughts on whether something like this might work for F-Class? (I wonder whether or not we have a large enough field of F-Class competitors to make it a robust or meaningful system?)

Dan, I did read the rule book for this and opted for the simpler rule 5.04.9.
Could not figure out the ABC thing in an automated program LOL.
 
Hi Daniel, Ian and I had quite a chat at th APRA Palma and I also involved Keith later by phone with this. Sort of a "western perspective" regarding shooters of the newer type and all the rest. This is just a brief illustration of what we talked over and may get some input from everywhere. I was going to put a formal email together and send it to Dave R but haven't quite had enough time. Besides, the team thing seems to be burning up the airwaves at the moment.


We seemed to agree on the points regarding shooter classification. Once the formula is decided upon, Keiths got a good working data base that could be run by the stats gent for each PRA and the resulting "Register of Canadian F Class Shooter Classifications" could be displayed on the DCRA website or on this forum for that matter. No need for Cards or anything else paperwise and it should keep thing fairly simple with only an annual update.

The next issue is awards. While it may not make fiscal sense at the smaller venues, it would make a statement to the new shooters if we got away from the present piddling award system. Even if the attendance was an average 3 or 4 per classification, award a gold, silver and bronze anyway. I'm sure they'd be more inclined to come back if they had a little something to show for the effort. We all know what it's like to get skunked whether we'll admit it or not. It is a "competition" after all. After a few years you'll take it a bit better but it's more fun when you can take even a small trinket home. It may smack of liberalism, but if it keeps them coming back, it's a small price to pay. Look at TR, medals for Master, medals for Expert, medals for Sharp shooter, even for a Green Shot if you can find one. Oh yeah, I haven't seen a "new" TR shooter out here for years, but I have sure seen a bunch of "new" scoped shooters. Am I seeing a trend?

Ian's looking at a "factory" class or even possibly a BR Hunter type thing with some strategic equipment restrictions to keep the average plinker rifle competetive in the right hands amongst others of the same breed. Target size remains immaterial. We noticed the F TR guys were having a blast between themselves. About the same as the F open boys.

The Palma was run with "3 on the mound" to get all the shooters through on 2relays at a reasonable time in the afternoon. I'm sure all of those involved are still cursing this misbegotten ritual. I sure as hell got stiffed. I may be wrong, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am. It might work in theory, but I didnt like it in reality..................Again.

We also pretty much have a consensus regarding the fact that,all things considered, the best we can do is promote and develop our local regional situation. We can't do a bunch about the "national" thing as much as we'd like to. The most we can hope for is increasing numbers locally and pray the trickle up theory takes affect and they get more interested in travel with better kit and loftier goals.

I'm not sure where this will wind up. From my perspective, I can't get people from the northern portion of Alberta to go south to try our game or stay in it for that matter. It's fast returning to the Calgary provincial rifle club. It seems pointless to attempt to get them to Ottawa. Up til now, it's been a bunch of running around with absolutely no results and I'm getting a bit frustrated. We know it's tough to travel, but with this game you have to. Get used to it. With the abundance of Long Range facilities, there's no choice.

I'm hoping Ian and Keith will chime in here and correct the errors and omissions. I'm hoping everyone else that's interested will give us their thoughts.

Cheers, Glen
 
FYI my personal opinion of shooter classification systems is that in practice there's all sorts of room for them to not end up working to the desired goal. Briefly, that year after year there will inevitably be someone mis-classified as an "Expert", who will clean up and prevent the "real" Expert shooters a chance to win their classification. Next year that person will be bumped to Master, but there's a good chance that some other "should be a Master" shooter will end up being in Expert class that year.

But, I might be wrong on that, and even so, if there are enough F-Class shooters out there that want a shooter classification system, at some point it may well be time to introduce one.

Keith, one artifact of using a range of scores to classify people is that it is actually classifying the shooter *plus* his equipment (i.e. an F/Open shooter will tend to have scores higher than an F/TR shooter, for a given skill level). Also, the "47+" figure used for Master (for example) is from the very old days of TR shooting with issue ammo; there's a good chance that these scoring bands would have to be recalibrated for F-Class. Using a system of percentiles (hey I think you're a smart enough programmer to do the "A" "B" "C" thing ;-) takes that into account and ends up producing a certain fraction of the field as Master, another fraction as Expert, and another fraction as Sharpshooter".

Glen Taylor and I discussed the classification system this past weekend as a possible circumventon of the short range ICFRA target, which will certainly be an anathema to new shooters.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "circumventing" the SR ICFRA target? Do you mean that it is a net negative to new shooters, and that a classification system might help ease the blow of a newbie shooting a 38 out of 50?

Whatever is chosen for a target system, the decision has to be made whether you want a "hard" or an "easy" target. There are good and honest arguments to be made for both.
In Target Rifle, the traditional choice has been an "easy" target system - a 2MOA bull is actually quite an easy ring to hit with slings and iron sights, almost all of the time. The good part to this is that "possibles are possible". I would argue that the bad part of an "easy" target system is that it turns the scoring into a "negative game", in that your standing in a match is essentially a result of tallying your errors (how many points did you drop?), rather than adding up your good shooting (how many points did you earn?). As you can probably tell, I am in the "hard" targets camp.

F-Class as a shooting discipline is at the extreme end of achievable accuracy - it allows very good sighting, and very good support of the rifle, and very tightly grouping rifles (even in the wind), so the nature of the game is such that at the top of the game, people are able to deliver their shots into very, very small groups on the target. And this poses a dilemma w.r.t. what the "right" F-Class target system is. If you use a system that is reasonably challenging for the people at the top of the game (and a ~1-MOA highest scoring ring seems to show itself in practice to be "tight enough to challenge even the best shooters" - F-Class shooters firing on a ~1-MOA 5-ring or 10-ring target typically get scores that are close to but not quite as high as TR shooters firing on a 2-MOA highest-scoring-ring target), you then have a target system that is *really* hard and unforgiving for shooters who are not yet at nationally-competitive skill level, or for factory rifles, or even for that matter a top-level shooter with a good rifle that is experiencing some problems. If you use an "easier" target system, you then have what might be considered an "overly easy" target system for shooters at the top, which can arguably damage the sport there; a really "easy" 5-ring ends up producing an extremely "negative scoring" sort of game.

I think before one were to worry about a classification system, one should look at why you only got 25 F-class shooters to the CFRC, with 60% being from Ontario or Quebec.

If 25 shooters constitutes an acceptable national attendance, we may as well hold "national" matches in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba too.

This is a separate issue, and to be honest one that I'm more concerned with than shooter classifications. Somehow, we need to find out if enough shooters out there actually *want* to have an annual Canadian national F-Class championships, and if so, what's the best way to put it on. Until now, it's been co-located with the national TR championships, and probably will for the next year or two anyhow, though I think there's a good chance that some developments in the works at present might open up the possibility of locating the national championships somewhere other than Connaught.
 
Somehow, we need to find out if enough shooters out there actually *want* to have an annual Canadian national F-Class championships, and if so, what's the best way to put it on
Daniel, I don't think the issue is "want" as much as it is "can afford both the time and finances" to attend the CFRC as it is currently presented. I don't know what the resolution is, considering the size of our beloved Country. Moving it elsewhere, even for F Class alone, doesn't physically alter the travel appreciably. It does make it easier for those in the region to get there but increases travel for those formerly getting to Ottawa and were back to the initial problem. Only the names will change. By taking this action, we'll just return the show to a regional affair. While travel may be reduced in some cases, the expenses for food and lodging and time away is still the same no matter where you wind up.

I think we all understand the logistics and impediments involved to attend annually. I'm at a complete loss as to how to proceed other than making the PRA's as active and strong as possible and hope we can generate enough enthusiasm to get them pointed to the CFRC regardless of where it's located. Maybe have a look at a biannual F Class CFRC? Like I said I have no idea how to forge ahead.
Cheers, Glen
 
First, the classifications:

On the plus side, this represents an incremental ladder, up which all shooters can climb with the net result being a tangible recognition of their abilities. It does however represent a bit of a "bell curve", with placement on that curve relative to other shooters, not one's own absolute performance. It will level the playing field so that new shooters are 'handicapped' fairly.

Obviously, the criteria should be tweaked to accomodate F-Class, but we also have the issue of classes. TR does not have TR Open, Restricted etc. and we still seem foggy about whether there will or will not be an F-Farky class. This does mean that there will be lots of scores to tally and awards to present. I like it, but i also recognize its challenges.

As long as their is as there is a willingness to recognize each classification through equal access to awards, I think it is a good idea.

On the negative side:

Who will administer this classification system? Will it represent a "National" standard? Will it be interprovincially portable (APRA is not DCRA conjoint)?

This will impact the cost of running a match. Entry fees are sometimes a financial burden to those on fixed incomes, and adding yet another expense seems to be counter-intuitive.

I applaud the fact that an idea like this is being put forward. It is a very good thing. We can parse this and make it work if we all buy-in.

The Target:

I don't want to beat this one to death, but this weekend allowed me to connect with many shooters who voiced considerable criticism of the new short-range ICFRA target. As I have been handed the torch over this issue, i have come across as the lone voice of dissent. I am not.

There is no doubt that nothing compells our PRA to use these targets, but a decision was made to align our rules, matches and facilities to better prepare shooters for international competition. I agree. Why re-invent the wheel? Part of the problem is nobody else in Canada is using this target (yet) and nobody knows why the heck I'm #####ing.

The Short Range target is not only exceedingly challenging, it rapidly obliterates with patches making it very hard to see. It is most unforgiving in heavy mirage.

We MUST consider the impact that use of this target is going to have on the sport at the club and PRA levels; early feedback in BC has been very negative. I'm warning the rest of Canada... buckle-up.

The complexity of this target can be anticipated/managed in several ways:

1) Let them eat cake. Only p*ssies shoot at targets they can see, and if you can't shoot .25 MOA groups, don't play.

2) Create a factory class as the ORA has done, in which factory class shooters are lumped together. This is a great idea for PRA's. It means no change in the targets and it means that equipment limits skill, thus a "dead ringer" likely won't clean up. It DOES leave the option of using a TR target for better success.

3) create a classification system as discussed. This does not address the technical unsuitability of the target however.

4) Abandon the ICFRA Short Range target altogether and return to the DCRA short range target (An excellent 300M target)

I quite like Glen's summary of the "Trickle-Up" concept. I am going to keep my own house in order insofar as building F-Class from the club level up... (To be continued)
 
The way I see it, at our local club, I know that we are just starting to lose some of our newer FClass shooters. One of our FClass shooters joked with me and said why come if you or Taylor are there, one of you two will win, and we did not see him this year on the line except at the Driller's.

I think it is time to classify the shooters and allow them to compete against others of near equal ability and equipment. I see at our local matches, an average of a dozen TR shooters, broken down into their classifications. In the TR group, we usually end up with 2-4 Masters and 4-6 Experts and 1-3 Sharpshooters. The way I see it, if the TR group can classify and breakdown into classes within their class(TR), with their low numbers at each match, then us FClass shooters should do the same. This is to keep the newbies coming back, and to allow them to set achievable goals, like last year I was a SS, this year I will strive to make EX class.

I entered and ran this system for the SPRA based on the years results, including the PPRA match and we have the following here:

TR - 3-4 Master, 4-9 EX, 1-3 SS depending on the match
FF - 1 Master, 2 EX, 4 SS and 1 GS
FO - 1-2 Master, 3 EX, 4 SS

The way I see it, we can have but two classes (FF and FO) like we have today and have 5 guys in each class so medal wise it is a 1st and and a 2nd for each class for a total of 4 medals per day, or we breakdown in classifications, and we have a 1st only for each of these sub-classes for a total of 6 medals per day for both FF and FO.

Dan, the ABC thing is easy, but the over the 3 yr period, two A's and 1 C makes a ???? and 2 B's and 1 A makes a what?? See why I say it is easier. I used the existing TR breakdowns, again, to make it easier, so we all are on the same breakdowns, 4.7 and up is a Master, etc. and also since we have a smaller tougher target, it made sense to me.

I know we usually have a pretty good time out at Nokomis each match, simply because it is so far from anything, everyone usually stays on site and we have fun after the matches, spreading the cow poop around and joking or shooting gophers after the group supper. The best matches is usually the PPRA, and now the Driller's, since we get travelers from the other provinces so the competition is larger with more guys on the line and without these travelers, it would be pretty small potatoes.

With the price of gas, travel and lodging and the shortage of supplies (powder, primers, bullets),I think we will only see smaller and smaller numbers so we have to start thinking of how we can keep the few shooters we have now. I have seen the SPRA loss six to eight FClass shooters each year now and if we could have kept them, we would have a much healthier club and I think the classification system is a start in the right direction, as would Eastern and Western regional championships.
 
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"Factory Class" can work fine for its intended purpose, though there are at least two things that can make it break:

1 - not enough people show up to shoot it regularly, so it doesn't get seen as "worthwhile" and not enough beginners pursue it.

2 - an expert shooter develops an interest in it, and sets out to win it on a regular basis. He can make it "unwinnable" by the people it was intended for (and perversely, it could be *more* expensive to out-compete him in Factory Class than it would be in TR or F/Open)

The last thing that fullbore shooting needs is yet another class of two or five people in it. Our provincial APM can get borderline farcical, with two shooters in one class, four in another, three in another, etc. Then again, perhaps this is necessarily the first (but not only!) step of "build it so they will come". Then again again, it can be frustrating to build something that people say they will come to, only to not have them show up.

4) Abandon the ICFRA Short Range target altogether and return to the DCRA short range target (An excellent 300M target)

I assume you mean the ICFRA F-Class short range target (~1-MOA 5-ring, ~1/2-MOA V-bull), vs. the DCRA TR short range target (~2-MOA 5-ring, ~1-MOA V-bull)?

On an apples-to-apples basis, the ICFRA TR short range target is pretty similar to the DCRA TR short range target (ICFRA scoring rings are a bit tighter). And the ICFRA F-Class short range target is pretty similar to the 2009 DCRA F-Class Patch system (again, ICFRA scoring rings a bit tighter). Whatever you don't like about the ICFRA F-Class Short Range target (sight picture, ring size, patches obliterating rings etc), would probably apply to the 2009 DCRA F-Class Patch system.....?
 
Dan,

I refer to the 35mm V-Bull 300M ICFRA short range target with the crowded "5" ring.

DCRA F-Class uses a 43mm V-Bull. It is not where the bullet lands that makes the ICFRA so bad, it's how you patch it and aim at it. If I had to design a short range F-Class target, I would use the DCRA target and make the V all-white.

As to the factory class speculation, I do not see that (experienced F-shooter) as being a realistic threat, and if the concensus is to the contrary, then it should be accepted that the spirit and intent of this class is to be a greenshot class and that "ringers" would be discouraged from entering. I think clubs/PRA's would be far further ahead to get it up and running and judge it on its real-world results, than to shoot it down in a tedious exercise of "What If?"
 
(no intent to shoot down any good efforts to get people shooting; agree that applying moral suasion to "ringers" ought to keep it doing what it's meant to do).

W.r.t. the ICFRA target system, remember that BCRA and ORA are trying it not because it IS the right thing to do, but that it MIGHT be the right thing to do. If it isn't the right way to go, then the ICFRA target system either needs to be modified and then adopted, or perhaps just not adopted. Suggesting that BCRA reconsider its use of ICFRA targets for TR and/or for F-Class, this year or next year or the year after that, is completely legitimate feedback.
 
Sorry Dan, I didn't mean to imply any sort of derogatory disagreement. I respect your opinions a great deal!

I am going to mull over the target issue Provincially and see what I can come up with for our AGM in the fall. Hopefully the opponents of the target show up, because their numbers are what will count. Getting people to put their money where their mouths are can be difficult. I also want to stay on collaborative and constructive terms with the exec at BCRA. Some of those guys have devoted a great deal to our sport and would see any disagreement as a matter of friction. They deserve full credit and accolades for their tireless hard work. Frankly, they (The TR-dominated ranks) have had to be the voice of F-Class on a number of different levels, and while it is easy to blame "TR" for influencing F-Class at the political level, the fact remains that it is these shooters that have been most active in putting forth a voice, at their own expense I might add. I do believe thay have done their job to the best of their abilities and with due dilligence.
 
Hi Ian, would having the markers at KTSA paste white inside the Vee / X and black outside the ring do anything to resolve the obliteration issue? I think we sort of did that at the Palma over the big white 9 so it remained visible and that sort of worked. I didn't hear Mr. "B" snort about visibility so I would assume he was happy. No?
Cheers, Glen
 
Glen what's the story on the "9" on the centre of the target at Homestead (I seem to recall seeing this on the youtube version of the APRA video)? It's not a standard target that I recognize....
 
Hi Daniel, when John Howard (RIP) was still with us, his printing business made repair centers for the APRA and the numbers were probably installed to keep us blind old farts from putting the wrong repair centers on the targets. When we went to the 1/2 value or MOA centers for F Class, the numbers were still there and I think it was for the same reason but a light shade of grey. Old eyes have trouble differentiating between the short range 3,4,5 and 6 centers even when they're right in front of you. :confused:

Cheers, Glen
 
I can't recall if Homestead is in yard or in metres?

Keith, there is only one "Long Range" target, and it is used for 700m, 800m, 900m, and 800y, 900y and 1000y. The ones produced by DCRA do not have a number in the centre. It sounds like APRA had a custom print run done and added a "9", no harm there. I would assume that the dimensions used are the same as the DCRA targetry, i.e. 24" diameter 5-ring and 12" diameter V-bull? There *used to be* a special 800y centre and a special 700m centre (scaled down so that 800y and 700m wouldn't be trivially easy), which are still probably around in various places, but they are not official targets any more.

In the DCRA system, there is a number (3, 5 or 6) in the middle of the short and mid range "meters" V-bulls. There is no number in the middle of the "yards" V-bulls. Because 500y and 600y could conceivably be confused, there is a small white square underneath the 500y 5-ring, to allow positive visual ID.
 
Daniel, Homestead is metric. The complete large target faces are official DCRA, stolen from the DCRA. The repair centers are custom and made here.

Oops! Busted! Now back to work.
Cheers, Glen
 
I printed the last 3 years and assigned an A to the top 30%, a B to the next 45% and a C to the remain 25% of the field for the FClass shooters. Since 2009 FF and FO were separated from each other in the All-Comers, I did the assigning based on this class separation and only tracked the guys from this year.

In looking it over, I think the ABC method does not represent the shooters true ability and turns some Master class shooters into Expert and real Expert shooters in some cases into SharpShooters for 2010, if we use this ABC system (which I think we should not myself) which the rules state is the preferred method according rule 5.03(10) Precedance.

Here are my findings and assignments based on the last 3 years of the All-Comers Agg. using on this years FClass shooters.

Gord Ogg - A = Master(single grade A - Master)
Barry Price - A = Master(single grade A - Master)
Leo D'Amour - B A = Master(Last grade A - Master)
Wofgang Scholze - A B = Expert(Last grade B - Expert) <--- s/b Master based on raw scores
Glen Taylor - B = Expert(single grade B - Expert) <--- s/b Master based on raw scores
Marius DeChamplain - A A B = Master(2 or more A's - Master)
Bruce Condie - C B B = Expert(two or more B's - Expert) <--- s/b Master based on raw scores
Mario Charest - B = Expert(single grade B - Expert) <--- s/b Master based on raw scores
Keith Skjerdal - C = SharpShooter(single grade C - SS) <--- s/b Master based on raw scores
Don McGinnis - C = SharpShooter(single grade C - SS) <--- s/b Expert based on raw scores
Norbert Yakey - C C C = SharpShooter(2 or more C - SS)
Matt Wolf - A A = Master(2 or more A's - Master)
Dale Rathwell - A B A = Master(2 or more A's - Master)
James Thompson - C C A = SharpShooter(2 or more C's - SS) <--- s/b Expert based on raw scores and is so close to being a Master it is not funny
John Tetlow - B B B = Expert(2 or more B's - Expert)
Colin Brown - B C B = Expert(2 or more B's - Expert)
Paul Reibin - B = Expert(single grade B - Expert)
Armen Papazyan - B = Expert(single grade B - Expert)
Claude D'Astous - C B = Expert(Last grade B - Expert)
Robert Kierstead - C =SharpShooter(single grade C - SS)

The ABC method makes Wolfgang an Expert, and he is probably the very best FClass Open shooter in the world IMO, based on his standings in many events around the world over the last few years.

I think the raw score method has more merit. If you think about it, lets say only true Masters go to Ottawa, be it in TR or FClass, and using the ABC system make some of these say dozen guys EX or SS shooters!!!

Comments from you other FClasser's are more than welcome.... even you Dan you EX "Fr" you LOL

Thanks,
Keith
 
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