SXS Won't Break Open After Firing

Winterkrieg

Winterkrieg

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I have a Suhl (Thalmann) SXS 12 Gauge, 2 3/4, Full & Full, with a 28 inch barrel in perfect condition. I bought it from Trade Ex Canada and cleaned it thoroughly. After I shoot it, it's almost impossible to break open. Can anyone give me any advice about what I can do to make this shotgun break open easier after firing?
 
straightshooter said:
That would be my first guess, too.

After virtually forcing the gun open, does the primer on either of the shells look like the firing pin depression has a scar toward the bottom of the action (water table)?
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I checked the shells I shot yesterday and half of them have firing pin depressions with a small gouge coming out of the depressions. What can I do to fix this?
 
Winterkrieg said:
I checked the shells I shot yesterday and half of them have firing pin depressions with a small gouge coming out of the depressions. What can I do to fix this?
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There are numerous potential causes for the firing pin sticking. The two most likely are:

  • that there are worn or broken parts in the action, or
  • that there is a buildup of gunk and/or rust constricting the opening for the pin

Worn pivot shafts will allow the firing pin to become sloppy and jam in the opening due to the improper angle of entry.

Broken hammers (the kind with integrated firing pins) sometimes leave the broken tip of the pin in place, where it can be struck by the rest of the pin, but it doesn't retract with the main body of the hammer.

Some designs make use of springs to push the firing pin back after the hammer stroke. A broken spring will also cause your symptoms.

Unless the Thalmann offers easy access to the firing pins, the repair would cost a good portion of the gun's worth.

You can try cocking the action, then taking down the gun. Placing your thumb, or a piece of soft wood over the offending firing pin, pull the trigger. The pin should now be stuck in the out position, with the gun completely open. In this position, you should be able to see if the pin is stuck at a weird angle. Otherwise, there's probably something broken.

If you push it slowly back and then it pops back the rest of the way on it's own, it could just be gummed up. Liberal use of kerosene or other lubricating solvent in and around the opening should free it up.

One last possibility... ...if you just took delivery of the gun and it came with the problem right from the get-go, you could try respectfully approaching Tony to see if he would exchange it. He's a pretty decent sort and he may agree to help you out.

If you've had it for any length of time, even without firing it, you should forget about that idea, though.
 
straightshooter said:
You can try cocking the action, then taking down the gun. Placing your thumb, or a piece of soft wood over the offending firing pin, pull the trigger. The pin should now be stuck in the out position, with the gun completely open. In this position, you should be able to see if the pin is stuck at a weird angle. Otherwise, there's probably something broken.

If you push it slowly back and then it pops back the rest of the way on it's own, it could just be gummed up. Liberal use of kerosene or other lubricating solvent in and around the opening should free it up.
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I disassembled the gun, put a piece of wood in front of the firing pins, and pulled both triggers. The firing pin on the right sticks out just a little bit more than the left one but they both stick out of the holes straight. I can physically push both pins back and they both return to sticking out of the holes. When I reassembled the gun and replaced the forend, both pins returned fine. Does this sound broken or could it just be gummed up?
 
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I had that problem with a Spanish made double. It was rough chambers around the brass of the shell, causing the shells to stick as you open the gun. The brass is biting into the chamber not allowing the shells to eject easily hence the gun breaks open hard. Fire one shell only and see if it is 1/2 as hard to open.
 
Had the same problem with an AYA SxS and as mentioned above mine was broken firing pin. A sharp rap on the buttstock would cause the pin to drop back and the gun opened no problem then. Fortunately the gun had bushed firing pins for easy removal, ended up having to replace both, about $75 each in '97 dollars.
 
I don't buy the high pressure loads / rough chamber argument. That would result in extraction problems, not initial opening problems.

I think that Straightshooter has it right when he suggests a broken spring. In a V spring gun, the bottom of the spring is used to power the tumbler while the top of the spring is often used to provide the rebound. If one of the springs had the last quarter inch of the top broken off, this would account for the symptoms described, and be the reason why only half the shells have gouges in the primer.

That being said, I have no actual knowledge of how the Thalmann operates. It does look to be a pretty standard Anson & Deeley boxlock, though.

Just my $0.02.


Sharptail
 
I edited my last post because I did the same test again but now I can physically push both pins back and they both return to sticking out of the holes. I can tell there is good spring tension behind each one. The right one still sticks out a little more than the left one. I noticed a guy online who has a new Suhl (Thalmann). He had a picture of the pins sticking out and the right one stuck out more than the left one exactly like mine:

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Do you think the action is just gummed up inside? I'll try some shooting tests later and see what happens. I'm only shooting Federal target loads at 1145 fps so I don't think they're too hot for the gun.
 
Well, I shot a few shells today and the results were not good. I fired both barrels and it did not open, I fired the right barrel alone and it did not open, and I fired the left barrel alone and it did open. Basically, it won't break open if I fire the right barrel because the firing pin is sticking out a little too far. That's kind of what I expected but I was hoping a thorough cleaning would help. Do you guys have any other suggestions? I really don't want to go to a gunsmith and spend money on repairs that cost close to the total value of the gun. I guess I could just use the left barrel but that's kind of boring :)
 
Winterkrieg said:
.... I really don't want to go to a gunsmith and spend money on repairs that cost close to the total value of the gun. .....
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In that case it's either time to sell it at a suitable price to someone that doesn't mind a project or take on the challenge of learning to do your own smithing on this level. In terms of the cost all you're risking is the return you'd get by selling a 1/2 working "project gun" since it's broken already so it's not worth the price you originally paid. So perhaps you're risking $80 to $100 that you'd get for selling it but stand to learn about and gain an operating gun.
 
The problem you're having getting practical answers, I believe, is because we aren't familiar with that particular make (speaking for myself). If I had the same problem to deal with, I would start by opening up the receiver and having a look to see if anything is obviously bent or broken. With a boxlock, you can usually gain access to the receiver simply by removing the stock.

I have had a similar problem in the past with a boxlock. In that case, it started with a broken V spring. Parts were no longer available (gun was approx. 85 years old), so I took the broken part to my friendly neighborhood gun parts supplier (Western Gun Parts) and compared it alongside the springs in his miscellaneous springs bin. I found one that was fairly close in dimensions (a bit wider and a bit longer on one leg) and I carefully ground it down to the right shape/size, being careful not to burn it on the grinder and damage the temper. The replacement spring cost me $15. Getting it back in the receiver under compression was tough, but between two of us we got it back together.

The new spring was so strong that it caused the firing pin to jam in the primer, preventing the gun from breaking open. It also caused an imbalance that led to the other spring breaking, too. Normally, I'd have been pissed with myself for not realising that the new spring had way too much tension. But, since I was going to have to go back in again anyway, I simply repeated the process of manufacturing a new spring, only this time I reduced the spring tension on both springs until I could compress them by hand (this was done by removing small amounts of metal, making the spring steel thinner).

With both springs fitted and balanced, I have not had any further problems with the gun.

Without knowing a person's analytical skills or their mechanical aptitude, I wouldn't recommend home gunsmithing, in general. But, for those who are mechanically inclined and meticulous about not damaging screws, etc., it can be fun and rewarding. In this case, you have the advantage of not having to worry about devaluing the gun beyond where it already stands. So, if you're up to the challenge, give it a go.

If you decide to take a peek, please take some macro pics of the inside of the receiver, so we can see what you see and perhaps help with some of your questions.
 
Some old design SxS let the firing pins out after firing. They are recocked when you break open the action. I had your problem this weekend at a shoot. The Winchester AA Extra lights has some very soft primers, to the poin that some were even pierced. I switched to my friends Eleys that are actualy Cheddite with the harder primers. It solved the problem. So before taking thinga a part, try a different shell. If this does not work. It is time to deal with the seller.

Regards,

Henry;)
 
Thank you all for your replies and advice. I'll probably try different shells first and if that doesn't help, I'll either have a look inside myself or go to a gunsmith. I'll let you know what happens...
 
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