Proposed Production Rule

Walter Hornby

Walter Hornby

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i know many of you follow the IPSC Global Forum but for those of you who don't i thought i would point this out. http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=9287, they are again proposing to set a magazine limit on production. i am against this because first off I hate some one just picking an arbitrary number. The second reason is that I think it destroys manufacture’s initiative. Now I realize that as Canadian this does not effect us as we are limited to 10. Furthermore if we go south of the border production is still limited to 10. However for anyone who is shooting outside of these areas it will affect, think Greece in 2011.

Since I know that the vote is coming up with the NEC of IPSC Canada I am urging each of you to contact your zone rep or your Section Coordinator and let him know where you stand on this. Also don't just tell him that it is pile of excrement but give him suggestions. one suggestion that i like to proposed is that we use the box just like standard.
 
Let me get this straight.


The REST of the world "f'd" Canada over by rejecting our mag exception for Sd division.

Now I am supposed to care about the rest of the world getting f'd in production.

come again?

I think this would actually HELP Canadian Shooters as they would not have to buy new full capacity mags and do not have to get used to less mag changes.
 
I am sorry Walter, I think this is going the right direction. There is a race as for how many rounds can a shooter squeeze in the mag and there are some who can have 20 in Shadow. I think they should come with same rule for Standard, or like USPSA make L10. I don't say, 10 rounds, but fixed number of rounds, whatever it is. Some STI mags will only take 15 rounds, then there are Rescopms which can take 19 rounds in .40SW, or buy mag from Brazil and have 20 rounds.
 
hmmm...I hate to have mags limited, as we were not given a choice here in Canada. For production however, I actually like the 10rd rule in USPSA (mostly because that is all i have ever known:():canadaFlag:

Althought the CZ is a wonderfull gun for production, I can't help but think that 19-20rd mag has something to do with the choice shooters make. :confused:

The shooter makes his /her own choices for which firearms they use,...however,...if shooter A and shooter B are of equal abilities, but shooter A has a 20rd loaded gun,....and shooter B has a 17rd loaded gun on a 18rd stage,..who is going to win? Who is getting the advantage? It really has become a double action first shot standard division outside of mag limited countries.:kickInTheNuts:
 
I disdain mag laws...

.... but I think in all fairness it steers toward a more level playing field overall.

If you look at any sport where technology is used to harness a result, and can have a major impact on that result, there are considerable checks and ballances in place to keep the technology in place and on an 'even keel'.
The end result of that competition pushes those rules to their boundary.

Personally, I'd like to see IPSC condense the rules for the divisions (production in particular) to stuff they (read ROs) can actually keep tabs on, and let competitors, manufacturers, and the rest of the cottage industry that supports it figure out the best way to push the boundary without having to analyse and re-visit rules every couple of years to keep 'other guns' in the game.

I think an overall gun weight (much like IDPA), box rule, PF, iron sights and capacity would be simple and effective.
The rest of it is pretty difficult (and in some cases, impossible) to enforce, or even outlandish so why have them?
 
maurice said:
hmmm...I hate to have mags limited, as we were not given a choice here in Canada. For production however, I actually like the 10rd rule in USPSA (mostly because that is all i have ever known:():canadaFlag:

Althought the CZ is a wonderfull gun for production, I can't help but think that 19-20rd mag has something to do with the choice shooters make. :confused:

The shooter makes his /her own choices for which firearms they use,...however,...if shooter A and shooter B are of equal abilities, but shooter A has a 20rd loaded gun,....and shooter B has a 17rd loaded gun on a 18rd stage,..who is going to win? Who is getting the advantage? It really has become a double action first shot standard division outside of mag limited countries.:kickInTheNuts:
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said any better. Not only that but having a mag limit of 10 for Production would be very nice for all canadian production shooters who go shoot outside Canada and USA. You don't have to buy and get used to different mags depending on where the match takes place. I totally agree with that new rule.
 
What Beltfed and Stormbringer said.

In time I believe Tupperware guns will dominate IPSC Production as they now do in IDPA amongst the top shooters. Glocks finished first in the 2008 US Nationals Mens and Ladies divisions this year and IF David Sevigny ever shows up at the IPSC World Shoot we might see a change there too.

Does anyone really believe the Glocks and M&P's are D/A guns?

Take Care

Bob
 
The proposal is for 15 rounds, not 10:

"21. Motion
That with effect from 1 January 2010, the IPSC Executive Council be authorized to amend the Production Division rules as follows:

Point 8: Maximum magazine length -- No
Point 9: Maximum ammunition capacity -- Yes, see below
Point 19.2: Magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more than 15 rounds at the Start Signal.
Point 20.1: Aftermarket magazines are permitted, subject to 19.2 above."

I'm against this for the same reason Walter mentioned. Our sport is supposed to encourage manufacturers to innovate and produce better products. Setting a limit discourages innovation. It's too bad the mandatory reload rule from a year or so back got quashed, it would have made all of this mag. cap. anxiety go away. I think that was a better proposal to level the playing field, equipment (mag capacity) wise.

I would not be in favour of a box or maximum weights, and I really don't see the problem with mega capacity magazines. Like any sport, there is going to be a favourite set of tools - but it still comes down to the shooters abilities at the end of the day.
 
(puts devil's advocate hat on):evil:

If the mag limits seems silly (and I ultimately agree they do) why stop there?

There are several duty type pistols that (IMHO) meet the spirit of Production Division but are not allowed because of other half-baked rules...Glock 34 and the FN Five-Seven are two off the top of my head, and I'm sure there is a host of others...
 
I'm against limiting the round count, completely against it. However if they are going to limit it, they should limit it to the current highest round count available in a Production approved gun and then allow people to use after market mags in their guns to get to that amount.
 
beltfed said:
There are several duty type pistols that (IMHO) meet the spirit of Production Division but are not allowed because of other half-baked rules...Glock 34 and the FN Five-Seven are two off the top of my head, and I'm sure there is a host of others...
Click to expand...
Isn't the FN only available in 5.7mm? If that was allowed then they'd have to allow 7.62 right?

:confused:
 
So much for encouraging innovation...

Another rule to make Production Division a pain in the butt. Now they're going to have to count to 15 for all PD competitors? Fun.
 
It goes against my better judgement to suggest arbitrary rules to level a division, but I've wrestled with this one since Vince first broached the subject.

The production rules on the whole are pretty balanced. If the intent was to allow non-1911's and street carry guns a division to shine, and avoid much of the equipment race that is part of Open and Standard, it's worked fairly well.

I don't know that a 15 round max loaded mag rule will completely make or ruin the division. I'm not sure if no rule was introduced, if we'd be seeing 24 round guns on the market.

Very mixed emotions I'm afraid.
 
well i am willing to bet that if we get a round limit in production we will see one in open and standard within three years so that we can make it more interesting by having mag changes.
 
pokpok1964 said:
Isn't the FN only available in 5.7mm? If that was allowed then they'd have to allow 7.62 right?

:confused:
Click to expand...

Sure, the minimum limit is 9x19mm for a pistol cartridge and a PF of 125.
What would happen if they just dictated a PF of 125 with no limitation of the cartridge caliber?

Same with the Glock 34....named as a 'competition specific' design or some sort (like the Tanfoglio stock II or Shadow isn't?:rolleyes:)
 
Walter Hornby said:
well i am willing to bet that if we get a round limit in production we will see one in open and standard within three years so that we can make it more interesting by having mag changes.
Click to expand...

One way or another, Vince will get his way. He continues to try to fix things that aren't broken.

In a few more years the sport will be known as VPSC Vince Pinto Shooting Confederation.
 
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