What makes a shotgun tactical?

Way to put words in my mouth!

I never said people without training shouldn't have guns. I said that people who lack the capability to confront an intruder should not do so. I said they should "sell off a few guns" to pay for a panic room, if thay can't use their "tactical shotgun" in a practical manner. Bringing a shotgun you can't use into a fight is just a problem waiting to happen, that doesn't mean you're not an outstanding bird hunter.

Just because you lack the skill and mindset, and the drive to acquire the skill and mindset, to handle such a situation doesn't mean the rest of us do. What price do you put on training, I bet you're sitting on a few toys worth more than several quality classes.

Anyway dude, I'm done with you. I sincerely hope you're never put in a position to test your PC mindset and tactics.

I apologize if I've offended you, I just wanted to be a little clearer on the point you may have been trying to make, But I don't know you and you don't know me, so how can you judge my mindset [starting to hate that term] and skill set , I'am not a violent person, but I do see violence as a means to resolve some types of conflicts, but it has to be done the right way.

As far as taking classes or training,well ,good luck sorting through all the bad ones to find the one good one that may actually teach you anything of real value.

and you'd win the bet,I'am sitting on a few toys that would pay for a few classes,and their mine,all mine.
 
Mossbergs have 2 extractors. Big deal. They wont work if one is broken IIRC.
Rem870P no contest.

Check out my off topic thread about TV show ideas and "guy VS gear".

I think a mossberg vs. 870 torture test would be a good episode...
 
TDC There is just no pleasing you is there, lets try again
870p max,Tritium sights and a drunk midget ninja with a dildo and a bottle of lube hell if that does not scare a perp I give up. A little while ago you swore your batterie powered toys are the only way to go. You almost had me convinced but your flip flopping makes me nervous.

There is no flip flopping. Target identification is an absolute necessity. In low light/no light conditions a modern electric light is required, there is no getting around it. This is where quality gear comes into play. Surefire and streamlight are the names to trust when it comes to weapon mounted lights. They have great track records and quality products. The light Marstar offers for example, is crap. A mag light taped to the end is crap. Would I choose either if I had no choice? You bet! If I had the choice(and I do) I wouldn't touch either one. Any light is better than no light and all lights can and do fail. Some just fail a lot less often. An electronic sight for extreme short range work is overkill that is unnecessary. It also forces one to rely on yet another uncontrolled variable. Your EoTech may last thousands of rounds on the shotgun, it may even have fresh batteries the night you hear a bump. The risk of the system turning off, you not turning it on, the electronics failing, the batteries leaking or being dead, the mount coming loose from either the shotgun itself or the optic's integral mount, are all potentials for failure. There are far to many negatives in running a reddot on an HD shotgun to warrant its necessity. A tritium bead sight or factory tritium ghost rings are more than capable of doing the job and don't have all the negatives to go with. The other upside to running irons. You can take all that money you saved on the reddot and put it into TRAINING!!

As far as using your weapon mounted light and covering everyone and everything you investigate. It is the safest(for YOU) and most effective way of clearing an area. Searching with a handheld while holding the shotgun is a disaster waiting to happen. Opening doors with both hands full is a tough task. What do you do with the light once you've identified an unknown person in your home and noticed he has a gun/knife/baseball bat in his hand? Do you drop the light and attempt to mount the shotgun only to realize you are now searching for the target in the dark? The risk of getting killed or assaulted before deploying your HD gun is very high. The use of a handheld light is much better suited to those who deploy a HD handgun. If that's the route you choose than go with it. From a tactics side, a long gun is superior and preferably a rifle. There are situations where a handgun is the better choice. I say run both and a partner like your wife/spouse with both.

The continued belief that one "could shoot uncle Ed" is nothing more than an excuse for becoming a victim or the response from the untrained. The potential to shoot someone whether it be friend or foe when using a firearm for HD is very high, regardless of whether or not you use a weapon mounted light. This risk is something you must consider PRIOR to deciding on having a HD firearm.

Identifying uncle Ed and deciding not to shoot requires my brain to process who is in the kitchen and determine the individual is not a threat, thus I do not need to do anything(I could effectively keep the shotgun trained on uncle Ed and my finger remains indexed along the receiver). If the person I identify is unknown and armed posing a threat to my life. The time it takes to process that portion of the situation remains the same as with uncle Ed. The difference comes when I decide to act. If I use a weapon mounted light I push the safety off and apply pressure to the trigger while focusing on my front sight. If I'm running a handheld light I must ditch the light(which requires its own set of thoughts) mount the shotgun, safety off, sight align(if you run rifle type or ghost ring sights), sight picture and press the trigger.

Telling my brain "NO!" when I see uncle Ed takes zero physical movement and a very short period of time to execute the command regardless of whether I use a handheld or weapon mounted light. Telling my brain "yes" when running the handheld and then orienting myself and my gear for the shot, consumes precious seconds which you may not have. Not to mention it induces errors in handling thanks to the adrenal dump you just received and the overload of information you are trying to process.

Go about it any way you want folks. Logic tells me one way is far superior to the other. My goal in any encounter is to survive, the rest is gravy.

TDC
 
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Lets find 3 rigs For HD, fantasy allowed make,model,and accessories. It could be a great reference for futures builds, next breaching weapons. Tactical shotgun is to broad, lets break it down to shotguns designed for tactical deployment in certain situations.
 
There's the theoretical debate about the purpose of calling a gun tactical, but then there's the concrete answer in terms of what features a tactical shotgun should have. One of the best answers was given on page one of this thread by Greenhorse six:

1) The word "TACTICAL" on its side.
2) I still feel that it should be "COMBAT" or "RIOT" shotgun.
3) A barrel of no more then 20" and no less then,What, 14"-12.5", with a OAL of not more then 40".
4) It should have a mag cap of 5 to 9rds
5) It should carry extra ammo on it.
6) It should have ether rifle or Ghost ring sights.
7) It should have a light.
8) It should have a sling.
9) Pistol grip (added by K-2)

It just so happens that only this week I bought a Benelli SuperNova Tactical that has seven of the nine things listed above. It doesn't have an attachment for extra ammo and no light.

After reading the posts in this thread I've realized that the only accessory I may need is a light, something I may or may not actually need.

The expert view seems to be not to get a scope as the gun's range is not far enough to justify one.

P.S. The Benelli SuperNova is a beautiful gun. I love it.
 
Lets find 3 rigs For HD, fantasy allowed make,model,and accessories. It could be a great reference for futures builds, next breaching weapons. Tactical shotgun is to broad, lets break it down to shotguns designed for tactical deployment in certain situations.

This is a good ideal,maybe start a new thread though,this one is kind of cluttered.

TDC, I remember the last words my uncle Ed said before he died," Careful there, that gun is loaded!"

just side note on the EoTech,at across the room distance,some guys don't even turn them on,just frame the bad guy in the window,pull trigger.

Myself,I can see the benfit of using one,and they are going to be used more and more on everything that go's bang,that' just the way it is, But, the only downside I see is they add more bulk then a good set of irons.

+1 on the Tritium front sight.
 
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If someone else wants to start a new tread by all means, I know their are more knowledgeable people than who can set it up .
 
If someone else wants to start a new tread by all means, I know their are more knowledgeable people than who can set it up .

it's not hard ,you've already ask the Question,just go from there.

And I like "BOOMSTICK!" as in Ash from Army of Darkness-"Alright you primitive screwheads,listen up! You see this! This...is my Boomstick!"
 
after reading the picture thread....
excuse me for coming in late, but let me get this right... this TDC guy has a maverick 88 with a mini-maglight duct taped to the barrel and he is saying that is a far superior setup for "tactical" usage..... (no sling, because transitioning to your secondary means you throw your primary on the ground)

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:
 
after reading the picture thread....
excuse me for coming in late, but let me get this right... this TDC guy has a maverick 88 with a mini-maglight duct taped to the barrel and he is saying that is a far superior setup for "tactical" usage..... (no sling, because transitioning to your secondary means you throw your primary on the ground)

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

The same guy who claims a pistol is more reliable than a revolver.:eek:
I'm sure my enjoyment of CGN will increase now that he is on my ignore list.
 
Does your house not have lights? If you can't hit a man sized target from 10-15 yards with an ugly short black shotgun which you call "tactical" then you had just as well give up and set up a perimeter of landmines and booby traps around your property. This thread is packed full of bullsh!t.

Just my .02 cents
 
Does your house not have lights? If you can't hit a man sized target from 10-15 yards with an ugly short black shotgun which you call "tactical" then you had just as well give up and set up a perimeter of landmines and booby traps around your property. This thread is packed full of bullsh!t.

Just my .02 cents

Who's to say that there'd be a house light handy or that the lights would be working?
 
after reading the picture thread....
excuse me for coming in late, but let me get this right... this TDC guy has a maverick 88 with a mini-maglight duct taped to the barrel and he is saying that is a far superior setup for "tactical" usage..... (no sling, because transitioning to your secondary means you throw your primary on the ground)

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

Where did you get the idea that I onwed a maglite or had one taped to my shotgun?? The lack of sling on my current shotgun is not a "tactical" decision, its a matter of securing a sling to attach.

Do tell, what is your superior setup for HD, could you explain the finer points of select loading a shotgun, perhaps under arm assault or clearing a class three malfunction...

TDC
 
The same guy who claims a pistol is more reliable than a revolver.:eek:
I'm sure my enjoyment of CGN will increase now that he is on my ignore list.

I'll ask you the same question I asked your friend above. Do explain why a revolver is more reliable than a pistol. In fact, I'll challenge anyone to a head to head competition.

500 rounds of factory ammo through a revolver vs an auto. The first guy to complete his 500 rounds wins or the first firearm to fail loses. All reloads must require no additional force or tools than is carried by the operator.

If that's too rich then we'll resort to a timed skills comparison.

10 rounds on target at 10 yards, fastest time(all hits misses don't count) wins.

To keep things revolver neutral lets go with 5 rounds, reload then five rounds. Same rules as a above, fastest time with no misses wins.

How about fire one round, then reload dominant only. Fastest time with no misses wins.

Anyone care to take the challenge??

TDC
 
I'll ask you the same question I asked your friend above. Do explain why a revolver is more reliable than a pistol. In fact, I'll challenge anyone to a head to head competition.

500 rounds of factory ammo through a revolver vs an auto. The first guy to complete his 500 rounds wins or the first firearm to fail loses. All reloads must require no additional force or tools than is carried by the operator.

If that's too rich then we'll resort to a timed skills comparison.

10 rounds on target at 10 yards, fastest time(all hits misses don't count) wins.

To keep things revolver neutral lets go with 5 rounds, reload then five rounds. Same rules as a above, fastest time with no misses wins.

How about fire one round, then reload dominant only. Fastest time with no misses wins.

Anyone care to take the challenge??

TDC

How does this test reliability?

Greg
 
I'll ask you the same question I asked your friend above. Do explain why a revolver is more reliable than a pistol. In fact, I'll challenge anyone to a head to head competition.

500 rounds of factory ammo through a revolver vs an auto. The first guy to complete his 500 rounds wins or the first firearm to fail loses. All reloads must require no additional force or tools than is carried by the operator.

If that's too rich then we'll resort to a timed skills comparison.

10 rounds on target at 10 yards, fastest time(all hits misses don't count) wins.

To keep things revolver neutral lets go with 5 rounds, reload then five rounds. Same rules as a above, fastest time with no misses wins.

How about fire one round, then reload dominant only. Fastest time with no misses wins.

Anyone care to take the challenge??

TDC

Well if I have a choice of shooters I'll take Jerry Miculek with his revolver against you any day of the week. I'll bet money you can't fire off 12 rounds from your Glock with a reload in under 3 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVxt2lebqM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSvjgNOJyo&NR=1

Something that we Seniors or near seniors should consider is our wives. My wife is an excellent shot but a broken right wrist and age has left her in a position where it is difficult if not impossible to rack the slide on any of my pistols. Answer - a good revolver. Point and shoot. I know my friend TDC thinks revolvers are crap but he is young and will learn that you have to dance with the girl you brought and Coke isn't the only drink at the soda shack. Some prefer Pepsi.

Take Care

Bob
 
The same guy who claims a pistol is more reliable than a revolver.:eek:
I'm sure my enjoyment of CGN will increase now that he is on my ignore list.

There isn't much I agree with TDC on but the reliability issued was solved years ago. Revolvers are not as reliable as pistols under field conditions. Any amount of sand, mud or crud will prevent the cylinder from turning. The US Military after extensive testing over 100 years ago chose the 1911 design because it was far more reliable than the revolvers of the day and not much has changed since then. I doubt there are many revolvers that would shoot 5,000 rds of ammo without cleaning and still function. Most quality pistols will do that and more.... and have.

All that said, where I disagree with TDC is revolvers have a place in the sporting/self defense community and sell well because of that. I love the ones I own but none would replace my CZ 85 Combat if I only had one to keep.

Take Care

Bob
ps I don't own a Sig or Glock but if I did they would become one of three pistols I would choose from.
 
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