Reloder 17 / 35 Whelen 250gr preliminary chrony results

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Whelen B

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Just got out today with ReL 17 for the first go round with it in my 700Classic in 35 Whelen. I didn't max out yet with it but made about 2610MV with the top load I tested. The short RN bullet helped when compressing the powder as the top powder charge I tried is nearing the case mouth. I can get a grain or two more in the case I think. Maybe (?) I can make 2700MV another day if pressure indicators permit that. So far so good. Here's the details for those who care.

Test rifle - 700Classic/35Whelen
Load details
- 250 Hornady RN - 3.300" COAL - about 1/4" jump to the lands
- once fired RP brass with WLRM
- no crimp
- all are compressed loads
- feeds slick in the Classic700
- all loads easy extraction - no sticky bolt lifts at all
- accuracy yet to be tested
- temperature was at 10 C

Uncorrected chrony readings at 12' were;

62ReL17/2393 round edge primers
63.5ReL17/2422 round edge primers
65ReL17/2475 round edge primers
66.5/ReL17/2497 flattened primers
67.5ReL17/2559 flattened primers
68.5ReL17/2590,2612,2594 -flattened primers but no ejector imprinting or scuffing - very slight case head expansion is just beginning to be measurable

I doubt I'll get to what eric2381 has reported - 2750fps with the same bullet - but he has a custom gun - maybe short throated and a faster barrel. Here's the link to his initial report - http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400382&page=2

BTW I guess this powder may be about perfection in my 26" tube 35 Whelen AckImp with 250s- and my 350WSM too - if accuracy proves good.


Regards

Whelen B
 
Thanks for the update. I used to use a very compressed load in my 7mm RM - when H870 was still available. I used the following method:

1. Measure charge
2. Powder into the case via funnel, keep the funnel in place
3. Gently tap the edge of the rim, in a circular motion (with funnel still in place)
4. I had a piece of white paper under the shell to see if any powder slipped out

You'd be fine as long as you made sure the funnel was sealing the mouth properly. It is amazing how much the powder can settle.
 
I ended with 69gr. I had to dump my powder charge into the funnel, then when the funnel was still tight to the case neck, I vibrated the charge down with my case tumbler. It may be that I have a faster barrel. I worked with it for a bit, got good speed and accuracy, but I had to leave home for work for awhile. I'll play with it some more when I get home again. I was using the CCI 250.

I bet it would be something in the 26" barrel and the AI case.
 
No intention to flame or start a pissing match, but why try to make a magnum out of it? If your barrel will let you get to 2500 or 2500+ fps with a 250 grain bullet you are getting all you will ever need out of a whelen. Also, in many instances the accuracy will be better. If you want shurer performance--perhaps go with a Nosler partition or Barnes bullet.
 
If I can do it safely and accurately with a new powder, why not? Or do you believe that all that is needed for hunting is the high velocity 30 WCF? Why was the 30-06 made? Or the 300 Win mag?

I am in no way either trying to be in a pissing match, but if I can do it safely, why not?
 
Two totally different questions
- "ought we" or "should we" or "why try" to do this on the one hand
and
- "how can we" do this on the other

One is philosopical (or moral) requiring justification and the other is quite practical requiring the facts necessary for the task. This thread is primarily about the latter.

"Should we" (or "why try") send men to the moon is a very different question than "how do we do it".

I'm happy you're happy with 2500fps with 250s from YOUR 35 Whelen. Enjoy away at 2500MV. Nothing wrong there. Mostly I hunt with 250s at 2440MV myself and it has always worked fine - DRT. So I get that.

On the other hand some may try improving on that - why improve? Because improving is good. I take my fun trying to improve and test loads for my various 35s. Greater velocity possibilities can be a good thing you know - for delivering more energy on target at even longer ranges for example. The historic "Poor Man's Magnum" as it was called, has been delivering greater velocities safely as new stronger guns (lotsa old weaker Springfields out there in 35Whelen), more suitable powders and better bullets have come along. I've been involved in that development for two decades. That is where we are here. If one can deliver over 4000 lbs at the muzzle (hello griz stopper), flatten trajectory, and deliver a ton out to 400yds by specialized loading then I like that option. The 35Whelen can then be used as a truly long range big game rifle.

Also often the fastest velocities give the best accuracy - not always but often enough. Even the benchrest guys are greatly interested in gaining 150 to 200fps with ReL17 over on 6mmbr.com. FYI Alliant says
Reloder® 17 was created with new technology to provide velocity greater than the competition in popular standard rifle calibers and the new short magnums.
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Tried to answer your "why try" question with a few reasons. As to this philosophical question of "why" or "ought we", I'm with eric2381 - "but if I can do it safely, why not?"

That's about all the justification necessary for now IMO.
 
I'll get around to testing it in my 35 Whelen with 24" barrel ASAP.

I guess my barrel is medium fast, as I get 2550 fps with 60.0 grs of RL15 with the Hornady 250gr RN. My loaded OAL is quite long - 3.400 (mag length) and it's still 0.120" from the rifling, so I expect I can fit in 69.0 grs of RL17 without compressing it.

Whelen B - you've got a heck of a jump to the rifling (0.250") - with a Spire Point you'd likely be in the 0.400" range! It's probably worth the work to open up the mag box and tune the feed ramp to reduce that to 0.100" or less.
 
Andy said:
I'll get around to testing it in my 35 Whelen with 24" barrel ASAP.

I guess my barrel is medium fast, as I get 2550 fps with 60.0 grs of RL15 with the Hornady 250gr RN. My loaded OAL is quite long - 3.400 (mag length) and it's still 0.120" from the rifling, so I expect I can fit in 69.0 grs of RL17 without compressing it.
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Andy, 69gr. is a case right full. Vibrated down and all. If you load 69gr., it'll be compressed.

I hope to hear how everybody does. Thanks Whelen B. for getting it going.
 
eric2381 said:
Andy, 69gr. is a case right full. Vibrated down and all. If you load 69gr., it'll be compressed.

I hope to hear how everybody does. Thanks Whelen B. for getting it going.
Click to expand...

I can only get 65.0 grs of RL17 into a fire-formed and neck-sized case. I'd compress it a bit and go to 66.0, but 69.0 :eek: I have been accused of being a foolhardy reloader, but I just don't roll that way.

We'll see how I do - maybe next week. I predict an average of 2500 fps from 66.0 grs. ;)

Note: I was wrong, I got 2600 fps.
 
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Andy, 69gr. is a case right full.
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Andy - eric2381 means 69grs of ReL 17 is case full - he's not suggesting that much ReL15 !!!
It's probably worth the work to open up the mag box and tune the feed ramp to reduce that to 0.100" or less.
Click to expand...
I don't feel the need for that as the mag box permits 3.400" now and accuracy is fine. As to the .250" jump, that's pretty common with all my 35 Whelens and 350Mags - often .300" jump. Both Remington and Ruger long throat those. They shoot accurately and the almost Weatherby freebore permits digesting larger charges of powder (and so greater velocity). The effect on pressures is as if your case capacity is larger than it really is. That's why load data for guns historically manufactured with long freebores - like the 358Norma Mag for example - warn against using the load as is if that freebore is not there.

Anyway I need the throat sometimes - like with these 310s. The 35whelen case cutaway pic below shows them seated to the canelure at 3.280". But in my 700 Classic we are discussing, I seat them out to 3.390" for a .085" jump. Also given your COAL (3.400") and mine (3.300" as reported above) with the Hornady250RN, my chamber throat is only .030" longer than yours.
woodleigh310gr_358.jpg
 
Whelen B said:
Andy - eric2381 means 69grs of ReL 17 is case full - he's not suggesting that much ReL15 !!!


I don't feel the need for that as the mag box permits 3.400" now and accuracy is fine. As to the .250" jump, that's pretty common with all my 35 Whelens and 350Mags - often .300" jump. Both Remington and Ruger long throat those. They shoot accurately and the almost Weatherby freebore permits digesting larger charges of powder (and so greater velocity). The effect on pressures is as if your case capacity is larger than it really is. That's why load data for guns historically manufactured with long freebores - like the 358Norma Mag for example - warn against using the load as is if that freebore is not there.

Anyway I need the throat sometimes - like with these 310s. The 35whelen case cutaway pic below shows them seated to the canelure at 3.280". But in my 700 Classic we are discussing, I seat them out to 3.390" for a .085" jump. Also given your COAL (3.400") and mine (3.300" as reported above) with the Hornady250RN, my chamber throat is only .030" longer than yours.
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Corrected - I meant RL17! :eek:

As for the throat, I'll just mind my own business. :redface: If you need it for heavier bullets that makes good sense. My Whelen chamber has a long throat too and with anything pointier or lighter than the 250gr RN, the jump is 1/4"+ for me too.
 
2600FPS with a 250 from a Whelen is great!
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Yes it's good - However I've done it lots and even got more velocity with ReL15. But ReL17 at this 2610MV is only slightly beginning to stretch the case head - hardly measurable with my micrometer. It's easier on the brass than even ReL15 at the same MV. Therefore, as I indicated, I think there is a way to go yet WITH MY RIFLE - not at max. Next range trip will be interesting. Might not be for a week or two though.

SuperCub - Once I get used to ReL17 and analyse it in my bolt guns, I intend to try it in my semi and pump 35Whelen. I'll pick a top load but with little or no discernable case head expansion for reliable extraction. Should be fun testing that. In the past with ReL15 I've self regulated loads and used 250s at 2500MV in my 7600 rifle. My sense is that with ReL 17 2600MV may work very well and reliably in my 7600. Time will tell.
 
Whelen B said:
Yes it's good - However I've done it lots and even got more velocity with ReL15. But ReL17 at this 2610MV is only slightly beginning to stretch the case head - hardly measurable with my micrometer. It's easier on the brass than even ReL15 at the same MV. Therefore, as I indicated, I think there is a way to go yet WITH MY RIFLE - not at max. Next range trip will be interesting. Might not be for a week or two though.

SuperCub - Once I get used to ReL17 and analyse it in my bolt guns, I intend to try it in my semi and pump 35Whelen. I'll pick a top load but with little or no discernable case head expansion for reliable extraction. Should be fun testing that. In the past with ReL15 I've self regulated loads and used 250s at 2500MV in my 7600 rifle. My sense is that with ReL 17 2600MV may work very well and reliably in my 7600. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

Just found this thread, I look forward to hearing your results. Since I'm completely out of Re15 I think I'll pick up some Re17 to try in the whelen considering your promising preliminary results. :)
 
Have you had time to do any accuracy testing yet?
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Not yet - but at 6mmbr they have shot some decent groups with ReL17 with their bench guns.
Since I'm completely out of Re15 I think I'll pick up some Re17 to try in the whelen considering your promising preliminary results.
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ReL 15 is the '"go to" powder - the jury is still out on ReL17 - but it holds out promise IMO. That's about all to say now.
 
I was out today shooting my 24" barrelled mauser in 35 Whelen and 250gr Hornady RN's at an OAL of 3.400":

Re15 - 60.0 grs (full) - avg 2560 fps
Re17 - 66.0 grs (compressed) - avg 2600 fps

Nothing "magic" about it, but it is worthy of some work to compare accuracies, and it will be running at a slightly lower pressure than Re15 but slightly faster which is good.
 
Thanks Andy - ReL17 looks promising eh?

You are getting 2600 with about 2.5 grains less than my 700 classic required for the same. In the past I've often found custom barrels and chambers like yours get things going with less powder - and the 2" longer tube would account for a little more velocity too.

In your estimation at 2600 did the brass evidence any over high pressure signs or was it all good? What temperature was your ammo and rifle? Must have been pretty cold.
 
It was yesterday and the temp was about -5C. No pressure signs whatsoever and once it warms up, I'll do some accuracy testing. Looks promising.
 
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