I always here how Canada is such a small market. Is it really? In the passed 5 years firearms sales have increased and the black rifle following as well. One just needs to look at how this site has progressed. It's simple buisness. And when some company realises it they will corner the market. I think it's the attitude (self fullfilling prophecy) that we allow. Sure, as a whole country we may not be big but to these companies we must be like ignoring a couple of states.
Pat Rogers "Tier 1" Guns
- Thread starter blueblast
- Start date
Lots?
I think I do o.k.
My understanding of the Tier Ranking is obviously different. I do not have the industry knowledge of a Walter from AEI, John H. from Wolverine or a Kevin B.
Maybe the Tier System doesn't work anymore with so many custom/small shops now. e.g Bravo Com. and MSTN
I offered an answer to the O.P based primarily on knowledge gained, amusingly enough, from this site.
If so many people know the answer, why is the correct knowledge not shared?
Canada's ENTIRE market on sporting goods is about the same as California's. Smaller in some markets such as archery. That was a 'chit house' statement that I have heard from several dealers and reps. I think it is entirely arbitrary just like the idea of tier 1,2 and 3 rifles.
In a super-heated market (which is where the AR15 found itself with the election of President Obunghole) - Canada would be a mere distraction compared to closer, larger more demanding markets. Would you (as a supplier) bugger around with a nation of gun fearing liberal socialists or chase the larger, more profitable markets closer to home?
Now that the craze is settling down and supply is catching up with demand I think suppliers will begin to take the Canadian market more seriously.
In a super-heated market (which is where the AR15 found itself with the election of President Obunghole) - Canada would be a mere distraction compared to closer, larger more demanding markets. Would you (as a supplier) bugger around with a nation of gun fearing liberal socialists or chase the larger, more profitable markets closer to home?
Now that the craze is settling down and supply is catching up with demand I think suppliers will begin to take the Canadian market more seriously.
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
1. really???
2. Unimpeachable source documents are pretty important. My Grandmother used to say "paper will never refuse ink" - folks can write pretty much what they want, doesn't mean that it's valid or that you should either believe it or repeat it...
Take a look at the actual chart and you'll see that BCM actually scores higher than Colt - not what I'd call either Tier 3 nor a "smaller" manufacturer...
blake
Tier1 typically measn the company has part 1st article testing, builds according to the TDP for the system, and is delivering to the USG.
Thus Colt (and Colt Canada/Diemaco), LMT, FN, KAC, HK 5.56mm guns would be Tier 1, all having USG contracts.
However since many of the designs offered to gov are different that what is offered to civlians, it is really hard to transfer over.
Paul at Bravo Co. makes a better gun than many of the "Tier1" offerings. He also builds custom guns.
There are obviously some companies to stay away from, other that you can use as long as you take some care in fixing some issues, and others you can pretty much be sure will run out of the box.
Thus Colt (and Colt Canada/Diemaco), LMT, FN, KAC, HK 5.56mm guns would be Tier 1, all having USG contracts.
However since many of the designs offered to gov are different that what is offered to civlians, it is really hard to transfer over.
Paul at Bravo Co. makes a better gun than many of the "Tier1" offerings. He also builds custom guns.
There are obviously some companies to stay away from, other that you can use as long as you take some care in fixing some issues, and others you can pretty much be sure will run out of the box.
Kevin I am not an industry expert. Can you explain some of that? What is '1st article testing'? And TDP?
So would my stock Bushmaster be a tier 2? What distinguishes it from a tier 3? Does their inclusion in the 'tiers' result from the 1st Article testing?
My Bushie runs well enough right out of the box, I have had a few failures that are probably either pilot error or the garbage reloads I make.
Maybe I should take over the judgement process. If your AR15 can eat the crappy reloads I make without jamming or exploding - you get to be in Tier 1 with all the cool kids...
So would my stock Bushmaster be a tier 2? What distinguishes it from a tier 3? Does their inclusion in the 'tiers' result from the 1st Article testing?
My Bushie runs well enough right out of the box, I have had a few failures that are probably either pilot error or the garbage reloads I make.
Maybe I should take over the judgement process. If your AR15 can eat the crappy reloads I make without jamming or exploding - you get to be in Tier 1 with all the cool kids...
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Not KevinB and not certain enough of "1st article testing" to speak to that, however TDP is the Technical Data Package which details standards and tolerances for manufacture of both pats and complete firearms packages. Until just recently Colt was in possession of the M4 TDP...
But the chart does nothing to signify that a company is Tier 1 or 2 or whatever.
The chart is also old and not properly updated. Stag is not Shot Peened and does not have a Staked Gas Key??? o.k??
My understanding of Tier 1 is somewhat similar to what Kevin B. stated. Primarily USG contracts....
Of course there are great Rifles out there, I stated that. It doesn't move you into a Tier 1 group though.
Mudgunner49.......... So if you know the correct info, why not share it? You point out that I am incorrect and my source is flawed.
Can you share your knowledge?
I stated the names of 2 Tier 1 companies, 3 Tier 2 companies and 4 I think would be in Tier 3. So which are incorrect?
I and the Original Poster would like to know which ones are wrong.
No one else has bothered to list anything. I don;t mind if someone points out an error , but have something to give me in return
I don't mind learning something
gushulak
CGN frequent flyer
States like Texas, California and New York and Pennsylvania all have populations equal to or greater than our entire country. Add to the fact that gun laws in the US are generally more favorable (except for Kalifornia). I have heard that gun sales in Texas alone are 10x what they are in all of Canada.
Canada is and always will be small potatoes to the American market.
Having said that, I do my part to keep gun sales up, even in a down market.
If you have evidence that a Stag Model 1 has a shot peened bolt and a properly staked gas key you should forward that to Rob...I contacted him regarding the chart one time and he is a pretty good guy. He is interested in debunking internet gun myths and quantifying data, that is the whole purpose of the chart.
So if you have evidence regarding Stag I think he would be really interested in that.
This is the most current edition of the chart:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
BCM is next to Colt on the chart, and everyone I listen to considers it a Tier 1.
Nobody I listen to considers a Stag a Tier 1, although I don't doubt they are good enough for me personally.
- Location
- The Hammer, ON
STAG is not tier 1, more like a low tier 2 or high tier 3 rifle...however, IMO they are great rifles for the money with really good fit/finish...i'd buy one as an everyday tack driver @ the range 
I think honorable mentions can include Sabre Defense, Noveske, and Daniel Defense
I think honorable mentions can include Sabre Defense, Noveske, and Daniel Defense
this is awesome I would guess 99% of Canadian AR shooters will never shoot any AR enough to wear it out with our 5 round mags you might wear out the magwel in the lower..lol so here tier whatever means little IMHO
I have a Armalite that has in log book fired a tad over 15k round the bolt first bolt broke at 6k(running gun dry) still on my new/newer bolt(with lube ) (that I got for free from wolverine )
so what it comes down too is LCF and $$$$ I tend to try to spend ten times the money on ammo then fancy dancy AR's I do want a Billet build in the future but thats just for the LCF!!
I have a Armalite that has in log book fired a tad over 15k round the bolt first bolt broke at 6k(running gun dry) still on my new/newer bolt(with lube ) (that I got for free from wolverine )
so what it comes down too is LCF and $$$$ I tend to try to spend ten times the money on ammo then fancy dancy AR's I do want a Billet build in the future but thats just for the LCF!!
What do you use as a measure to divide the Tiers??
It is called Tier 1 Supplier....not Tier 1 in Popularity?
I agree. It is a Tier Supplier system. If you are not supplying anyone....you are Tier nothing. No Mil / U.S.G contract, again Tier nothing. No matter where you place on that dumb chart...
I just go by what is on Arms East site.
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
I think Norinco is Tier 5...
A Stag bought from Armseast or one of their dealers isn't necessarily the same rifle you would purchase from a US Stag supplier. As far as the whole tier thing goes, fer Chrisakes go out and shoot- if it goes bang and hits the mark, the rest is irrelevant.
