It really a little sad...

ChrisSinc said:
Call it something politically correct to get the damn thing in the country if made out of country ala the "grizzly" which is made by Norinco. I don't care what you call it. Call it the "Beaver 3000 with genuine Saskatchewan seal skin rifle sling" or "Sparkly Princess safety rifle". How many of these would fly off the shelves? I guess we have no domestic arms manufacturers left which is unfortunate.
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Do you want to know what genuine Saskatchewan Seal skin slings cost?! You won't do a rifle so equipped for under $1K. Even Holland & Holland won't touch that. You might as well craft the front sight and mag release from California Condor talons.

The chemicals involved in the "Sparkly Princess" metal finishing process are even prohibited in Mexico as of 2004. It did leave a finish impervious to wear, humidity, rough handling, and the disapproval of 80% of San Francisco's male residents. I guess some things just aren't meant to be.
 
A $1000 domestic semi-auto matching your description is a fantasy. You know what's also sad? I didn't win the lottory last time I bought a ticket.

If you want to be bombarded with artificially underpriced goods then go get an American citizenship and move south.
 
Good idea.

Cost will be much higher than you imagine though.

Let's look at a couple of things that'd go into this though....

Take a $250 barrel blank. If you machine it to fit, you'll probably need at least an hour on a lathe to complete it, and that'll cost you $55 an hour for the machine (local Machine shop costs) so now you're at $305.

Let's take a block of metal for a lower receiver. Use the AR-15 lower as an example. You have 2-3 setups required (one for each side, plus the buffer tube hole) and each will take about an hour, plus the block of metal. Let's see, that's 3 hours ($165) plus the metal ($50?) So, you're now up to $520 in total, and you only have a lower, and a barrel done.

The upper is actually more complex (IMO) to machine than the lower, but let's say it uses the same amount of time and money to machine. Add another $215....now you're at $735...

Let's add in a hundred dollars for injection moulded parts for handguards and such, now you're at $835.

Suppose it is compatible with an AR-15 Lower Parts Kit, so you don't have to make trigger bits from scratch....there's another $100 for a LPK.

How long will it take to assemble it and test it?

An AR will take an experienced assembler about a half hour to assemble. How much are you going to pay that skilled person? Call it $40 an hour? So, add another $20 for assembly.

$955

Let's add in proof-testing, and the person to to that. Call that a half hour and another $20.

So, now, just to build and test the rifle, you're at $975.

Add on top of that the costs for the test-range, the shop, advertising, shipping, taxes, and so on.

A $1000 rifle, particularly a small production run, is damn hard to consider as a possibility.

If someone was able to bring this rifle to the Canadian market, I'd guestimate that it'd run closer to the $1500 area as a minimum.

That said, your target audience is also limited....because an average deer hunter will not want a .223/5.56, so you'd best make a couple versions of it, probably add one in .243 (in which case you lose your magazine interchangeability/STANAG) or .308/7.62, which would mean adding in a new magazine system and a re-design, but losing the 10 round mag advantage of the STANAG 5.56 mags.

I'd guestimate that a .308 version would be closer on to $2k-ish if one were to show up.

That said, I'd probably buy one of the .223 ones, especially if it managed to beat the $1500 price-point.

Those with more machine-shop (particularly commercial shop) experience feel free to chime in and toss some corrected numbers at me if you can, but this is (IMO) a half-way realistic examination of what the numbers would tell me.

A $1000 rifle, to the specs you describe, for the Canadian Market, would be pretty dang hard to accomplish.

NS
 
Cost will be much higher than you imagine though.

Let's look at a couple of things that'd go into this though....

Take a $250 barrel blank. If you machine it to fit, you'll probably need at least an hour on a lathe to complete it, and that'll cost you $55 an hour for the machine (local Machine shop costs) so now you're at $305.

Let's take a block of metal for a lower receiver. Use the AR-15 lower as an example. You have 2-3 setups required (one for each side, plus the buffer tube hole) and each will take about an hour, plus the block of metal. Let's see, that's 3 hours ($165) plus the metal ($50?) So, you're now up to $520 in total, and you only have a lower, and a barrel done.

The upper is actually more complex (IMO) to machine than the lower, but let's say it uses the same amount of time and money to machine. Add another $215....now you're at $735...

Let's add in a hundred dollars for injection moulded parts for handguards and such, now you're at $835.
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You neglected to factor in the CNC setup costs and tooling costs. Each setup for the receiver machining requires special tooling to hold onto the part. Those all have to be custom made and are EXPENSIVE to make. The injection molded parts all require setup costs and molds to be made, both of which are expensive.

As well the cost of materials is significant and was not added into your calculation. The block of 7075 aircraft grade aluminum required for each of the two receivers would likely run close to $100 per receiver.

You also didn't factor in the cost of the cutting tools and the CNC machinery needed to make these parts. You're looking at somewhere around $200K worth of CNC machines needed to make such a thing at the speeds you are claiming. And all that carbide tooling doesn't come cheap.

As well there is the cost of anodizing and EDMing certain parts .... unless you want to add another $50K - $70K for an EDM machine.

The reality is the CDN shooting community is simply not big enough to support the mass manufacture of a rifle like this at a competitive price.

A cheap CDN made semi-auto rifle is a fantasy. It could likely not be done for less than $3000 per unit and likely would run more than $4000 per unit if not more.
 
NavyShooter said:
Good idea.

Cost will be much higher than you imagine though.

Let's look at a couple of things that'd go into this though....

Take a $250 barrel blank. If you machine it to fit, you'll probably need at least an hour on a lathe to complete it, and that'll cost you $55 an hour for the machine (local Machine shop costs) so now you're at $305.
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Your machining times are a little high.

An hour to contour a barrel is rediculous. I'd guess well under 20 minutes with a decent CNC machine and proper tooling. A lower (AR style) would be maybe 15-20 minutes a side. Ideally, you'd be machining the lowers on some sort of tombstone, meaning you only have two setups, maybe three. Tool technology these days is mind blowing fast. With aluminum, often your machine can't keep up with the tool. I'm talking 20,000 RPM spindle running the tool at 200 inches/min cutting speed. Even with 4140 tool steel I had a CNC mill maxed out at 10,000 rpm spindle and 100 inches.min feed.

As for fixtures, often off-the-shelf components can be used to reduce costs. I've looked at the best way to hold an AR15 lower a lot, I figure it could very easily be done with readily available fixture components. Ideally, if I was manufacturing, I'd set up a horizontal tombstone on the rotatory axis.

I do, however, agree that a Canadian made gun will be expensive, due to the relatively low volume sales. You'll never see one for under $2000. If I ever made my billet AR180B lowers for sales, I wouldn't sell just the lower for anything less than $1000.
 
Sask,

Bear in mind, my experience with CNC is very limited (alas!)

I'm not a journeyman, and never even finished my apprentice course...I dropped out after the first term and joined the Navy. 17 years later, it's one of my few regrets.

That said, 17 years later, I finally have a reasonably equipped manual shop, (got a bandsaw last week!) and maybe when I retire, I'll drop the coin on a CNC Masters junior mill.

NS
 
Would a 1000 dollar Canadian rifle in .223 be possible by using an AK ripoff design with its loose mfg tolerances, but with enough redesign and differences so it could not be classed as an AK variant?
Or is the AR design the only way to go?
 
NavyShooter said:
Sask,

Bear in mind, my experience with CNC is very limited (alas!)

I'm not a journeyman, and never even finished my apprentice course...I dropped out after the first term and joined the Navy. 17 years later, it's one of my few regrets.

That said, 17 years later, I finally have a reasonably equipped manual shop, (got a bandsaw last week!) and maybe when I retire, I'll drop the coin on a CNC Masters junior mill.

NS
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I'll let it pass this time, since you don't work in the industry. :D

Honestly, I'm constantly amazed at what the tool companies are coming up with to decrease machining times. We had a rep in last month showing us these thread milling end mills that, using a corkscrew type feed, cuts the hole and machines the threads at the same time. You go from 3 operations (spot drill, tap drill, then tap) to one operation and it is FAST. From maybe 40 seconds per hole, to 3 seconds. Still blows my mind.
 
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Damn Sask....and I'm impressed when I machine a 30" stainless steel counter-top bracket/mount for my new stove-top thingie. It's the first time the wife has seen a practical result from the $$$$ in tools I've got downstairs (ie not gun related.)

She was pleased....the steel cost me $32, and a few hours playing with the mill.

The plastic fitting would have cost me $70....they don't make ones out of steel.

NS
 
The big issue is the market = very small.

I am working on a few things, as are others. We'll see.

The AR is actually easier to make in low # because it is CNC vs stampings.
 
would a 1000 dollar Canadian rifle in .223 be possible by using an AK ripoff design with its loose mfg tolerances
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Machining tolerances are not why a rifle is expensive. It is all those little parts and the tooling and machines to make them that are the expensive parts.

Think of how many individual parts there are (down to each little pin and spring) in the average semi-auto rifle. Each part requires a setup, fixturing and tooling to make. AK's are cheap cause they are made in third world countries by people who get paid a bowl of rice a day and they are made by the tens of thousands, maybe the hundreds of thousands. The tolerances are crap cause they are made on s**te machinery by uneducated workers.
 
An hour to contour a barrel is rediculous. I'd guess well under 20 minutes with a decent CNC machine and proper tooling. A lower (AR style) would be maybe 15-20 minutes a side. Ideally, you'd be machining the lowers on some sort of tombstone, meaning you only have two setups, maybe three.
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Have you ever actually made an AR lower or produced a complete barrel from a blank? I've watched it being done and can tell you it takes a lot longer than what you posted. Also your post supposes said company has a quarter million plus invested in machinery to do the work. No company in Canada is going to invest that much into a rifle they will sell a few thousand of at most.

If it is so easy why not produce one for yourself? I'm sure it would be an enlightening experience for everyone.
 
MustangFrank said:
I'm not sure what you don't agree with. The statement was a rifle like those mentioned could not be made for 1000.00 in Canada. You alluded to Norinco making one for 1000-1200. Norinco is in China where they pay in bowls of rice. No gun maker in Canada will work for bowls of rice.... Would they?? Any takers?
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Sorry I didnt read it correctly, i thought he was saying that no one could get a rifle like that into canada for 1000 which they could thats why I alluded to norinco.
 
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